Friday, February 09, 2007

Guest poster Chris Fotos sez ...

Victor has provided me the opportunity to reply to Mark Shea in a posting on this site.

I am taking advantage of his offer because Mark continues to attack me by name without providing me the ability to respond, having banned me from CAEI. How a professed Catholic apologist can abuse his position by using the leverage of his massively larger audience in this one-sided way is beyond my ken. That abuse is compounded in Mark's comboxes, where the pile-on continues by Mark and at least one commenter secure in the knowledge their representations cannot be challenged directly by the person they are attacking. I thank Josiah and others who speak where I cannot speak for myself.

I will not tackle every collapse of reason in this post because much of what Mark is saying has been refuted at length by Victor, Torq, Jimmy Akin, Fr. Harrison, Tom McKenna, Shawn McElhinney, Christopher Blosser, and the barista at Starbucks. But I will note that when Mark writes the following:
This quote speaks volumes about a person's ecclesiology. What lies behind it is nothing less than the belief that there are basically two Churches (generally known as the pre and post-Vatican II churches). The pre-Vatican II Church taught one thing infallibly. The post-Vatican II teaches another (and often the opposite) thing infallibly. Our task is to choose between them.
He commits the characteristic error of misrepresentation. In this case it is a perfectly symmetrical misrepresentation since it is the opposite of how I approach the magisterium in general and the torture debate specifically. This is not some deep meta-narrative I have buried so in normal circumstances I would be astonished that someone could describe it exactly backwards.

The venture outlined by theologian Fr Brian Harrison tries to harmonize 2,000 years of Catholic tradition and the foundation of that tradition going back through the Old Testament. Jimmy Akin arrives at what I believe is the same destination by a slightly different route. Cardinal Dulles has made similar points in a different arena.

Now, as we know, Mark — how should I put this — Mark has intemperately rejected this approach when proposed by Victor or myself or the other usual suspects, but has been open to it when proposed by Jimmy Akin. It also appears that Mark has yet to read Fr. Harrison's exemplary examination of the issue, having assigned him to the Dark Side of the Force. I therefore recommend that somebody send Mark a copy of the Harrison article, especially Part 2, but sign it under Jimmy's name. Either that or sign it "fondly, Cdl Dulles." Though Mark has occasionally been flippant towards the latter he has yet to refer to him as Some Guy Named Cardinal Dulles so it might get through the filter.

As I have said before — I really should have this on a save-get key — Harrison's examination of the issue does not singlehandedly defeat every objection. But it's charitable, learned, well-documented, placed within honest historical context, and as a bonus positively fascinating. Jimmy does not ignore history but Harrison marshals it in a way I think most of us don't have the training to achieve. Other than that, all I can say is that an apologist who does not accurately describe the arguments of his adversaries poses dangers that are more troubling than the immediate disagreement.

306 comments:

1 – 200 of 306   Newer›   Newest»
Donald R. McClarey said...

"This quote speaks volumes about a person's ecclesiology. What lies behind it is nothing less than the belief that there are basically two Churches (generally known as the pre and post-Vatican II churches). The pre-Vatican II Church taught one thing infallibly. The post-Vatican II teaches another (and often the opposite) thing infallibly. Our task is to choose between them."

This is an interesting case of projection. Mark, by seizing on a few quotes from encyclicals written post Vatican II, contends that the Church teaches that torture is inherently evil. If this were the case, then there would be a massive contradiction between the Church pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II because it is manifestly clear, except to the willfully blind, that the Church pre-Vatican II did not teach this, and frequently acted and taught in a manner contradictory in regard to torture. Mark's position leads inevitably to the conclusion that the Church is right on torture now, and was wrong on torture throughout almost all of her history. My position is that Mark is simply wrong that the Church teaches that torture is inherently wrong. I believe that the Church has always viewed torture with condemnation in most situations, but that under grave cirumstances limited torture may be licit when utilized by State or Church. This position is uncongenial, to put it mildly, to the vast majority of the population in the West today, but I think the history of the Church bears out my contention. The sparse quotations cited by Mark are not sufficient to change a teaching of the Church held for well over a millenia.

Greg Mockeridge said...

How a professed Catholic apologist can abuse his position by using the leverage of his massively larger audience in this one-sided way is beyond my ken

Wanna know how? I'll tell you how. Other than the fact that Mark has become a bombastic, buttheadish blowhard, no one (other than Dave Armstrong) in the apologetics establishment (or oligarchy as Shawn McElhinney rightly calls it),especially Jimmy Akin and Karl Keating who continue to endorse Mark by employing him on the Catholic Answers Speakers Bureau, has the decency to hold him accountable for his utterly wretched conduct.

Until we are willing to realize this and act accordingly by bringing public pressure on the apologetics oligarchy to try and put a stop to this, we are just going to see more of this, for which we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Quite frankly, all this responding to Mark is not only getting old. It's looking more like a blog whine-in.

Andy Nowicki said...

Greg, I feel the exact same way. Catholic Answers, I think, sins by omission by letting Mark Shea continue to be his nasty self, without even in any small way holding him accountable. It's terribly disappointing and quite disillusioning. The One True Church deserves to be defended with greater elegance.

Greg Mockeridge said...

You know Andy, the real tragedy here is that in many instances, these people have often defended the faith with great elegance. To see them engaging this kind of behavior bothers me all the more.

Diane said...

How a professed Catholic apologist can abuse his position by using the leverage of his massively larger audience in this one-sided way is beyond my ken.

I think he learned this technique from his bud Rod Dreher.

Except that the latter is not Catholic and does not have what could remotely be caleld a massive audience. :)

But the m.o. is the same.

Diane said...

You know Andy, the real tragedy here is that in many instances, these people have often defended the faith with great elegance.

Amen. Mark's books rock. No one explains the Faith for evangelicals more clearly and compellingly than he does.

Diane said...

btw, though, I absolutely think Mark should continue with Catholic Answers Speaker Bureau. His talks are great, and they have nothing to do with politics.

Mark stood up for me when some creep in his comboxes threatened to jeopardize my job. I appreciate that a lot. I still believe his heart is in the right place. I just wish he would restrain his insults and invective, is all.

Greg Mockeridge said...

btw, though, I absolutely think Mark should continue with Catholic Answers Speaker Bureau. His talks are great, and they have nothing to do with politics.

But what this is saying, in effect, is that because his "talks are great" he should get away with continually hurling calumnious invective at other good Catholics. I find this totally unacceptable because it ignores what I think is the most important virtue a Catholic apologist must display. And that is intellectual honesty and basic concern for the good name of those he disagrees with, especially when they are orthodox Catholics who take a legitimately Catholic position.

Andy Nowicki said...

Amen to that, Greg. Catholic Answers does good work, I'm sure, but they haven't and won't get a dime from me under current circumstances. I'm not calling for a boycott, only saying that companies that employ abusive jerks and let them abuse others with impunity don't inspire me to generosity.

kathleen said...

As for Catholic Answers, it's not a selling point when the catholic apologist they employ can't control his temper in a forum he hosts voluntarily and to which all are invited. They've paid already in lost business, and if they don't realize that, they are pretty dim. I guess it's a cost they are willing to bear.

Diane said...

I'm not calling for a boycott, only saying that companies that employ abusive jerks and let them abuse others with impunity don't inspire me to generosity.

LOL! That's why I henceforth will not read the Dallas Morning News.

Wait! I never did read the Dallas Morning News. :)

Oh well. Now I really really won't read it.

I still think it's a bad idea to jeopardize someone's livelihood, though. Especially someone with a family.

Diane

Anonymous said...

JOSEPH D'HIPPOLITO SAYS...

Diane, it's Mark's responsibility to conduct himself in a manner that doesn't threaten his livelihood, especially if his behavior involves callous disregard for the truth or for basic standards of civility. If the Akins and Keatings can't recognize even that, then why should anybody patronize their services?

david said...

I therefore recommend that somebody send Mark a copy of the Harrison article, especially Part 2, but sign it under Jimmy's name.

I scanned most of it. Its incredible. And here I was laboring under the fantasy that it was never morally permissible to violate human dignity. But I guess you guys know best.

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