Monday, February 19, 2007

"Why do I have enemies ..."

I'm not used to it ... Shea wonders. While calling us a "star chamber" (which might answer the question, but let that one go).

But then in the combox, when Chris Blosser says some people want their opinions accurately represented, Shea goes back into rant mode.
It's not my fault if they describe themselves as "anti-anti-torture" or declare that torture is a "Randian anti-concept", or spend trillions of watts of electricity quibbling over just how much prisoner abuse you can get away with before it's technically, precisely, torture, or waste months complaining that the plain and obvious meaning of the Catechism is not "Don't torture or abuse prisoners. Treat them humanely" but "fundamentalist proof texting" that we can safely ignore if the exigencies of Bush policy demand it.

It's not like they haven't got a chance to get their views out. It's just that they don't like it when their views are clearly stated in broad daylight.
I get more and more the sense that this is completely hopeless. It not simply the ideas, but the fact that this came in the context of a post and combox where he acted like he wanted peace, that he wanted to understand what we have against him, soliciting suggestions on "how can I even start reconciling with them," etc. But the minute someone suggested fault with him, the same old Shavian Straw Men™ came gushing out, as predictably as Old Faithful.

There is exactly one statement in there that is accurate without a score of long ago fleshed out qualifications and additional premises, none of which I at least would accept. And others that are simply lies (that we are motivated by "the exigencies of Bush policy").

I did indeed (and would again) describe myself as anti-anti-torture, though if someone were to reflect seriously on what that might mean, it's obviously a way of saying one is NOT "pro-torture" despite appearances. English has plenty of analogous "double negative" terms -- "I don't dislike it" does not mean "I like it."

Here's another deal, Shea. You stop putting words in our mouth (like the fake baptisms, about which we hadn't said word one before you ascribed support of this to us; or Hugh Hewitt's interview with the general, which actually had little with which I disagree) and you stop pretending to understand what we think because I guarandamntee you: You. Don't. And we'll lay off.

The alternative? You can keep ascribing the false views to us that you do. And we will keep calling you a liar.

I'm glad Lent is coming up.

POSTSCRIPT: He will never figure it out. First he misrepresents Mark Adams, pretending that our accusations of lying are circular. Which is not true. I have quite fastidiously documented where Shea has lied. All he has had in rebuttal is sneers and repetition of the original lie. Second he offers Andy Nowicki an apology worthy of John Edwards' bloggers, apparently not remembering that he made great sport of calling him "The ASCII Martyr." Combined with his reaction to Blosser ... well, to engage in classic Shavian tactics, the person who e-mailed me earlier was right -- this thread was a bid for an ego-bath.

Admirer: "Why don't you turn the other cheek?"
Mark: "Yes, I think I might"
Admirer: "All of these people HATE you so . . . "
Mark: "I know. I just can't understand it."
Admirer: "You're so great, Mark"
Mark: "I trust your judgement"

And as for his saying that he has not misrepresented us. Well ... to stick to one example -- the easiest to document and the one where he has the least defense, he has done exactly that when he attributes motive, as in "the Coalition is motivated by the exigencies of Bush policy." (link is above)

Shea ... I am *telling* you that you have engaged in serial misrepresentation of what we think and why we think it. I know what I think and why I think it. My knowledge on those subjects is infallible. You have no knowledge whatever (your four-characters "bunk" is not an argument). Neither you nor any third party has any no right to claim to know my thoughts or motives contrary to my word. Period. Particularly with such pathetic responses as "bunk." Do not think or pretend otherwise.

35 comments:

Greg Mockeridge said...

I think curing Mark's IDHD (Integrity Deficit Hyprocrisy Disorder) will require stronger medicine than we can provide.

Seriously, I think praying for him would be a good Lenten intention.

kathleen said...

"And, of course, a normal person, I believe, naturally wonders 'Maybe they've got a point.' Certainly I can be sarcastic and dismissive in my replies. Certainly turning the other cheek is a habit I have not yet acquired. I tend to give as good as I get, where possible."

as they say in law, question "asked and answered".

Shea would serve himself well if he allowed the notion that maybe he does not have all the answers, maybe he is not omniscient (despite the amen chorus), maybe there are people out there who are -- on this point, in this instance -- smarter and better informed [gasp!] than he. he might even find in that idea some measure of relief.

Christopher said...

Mark's non-understanding of the "anti-anti-torture" comment is particularly confusing coming from the man who once said "I swear, it's the proponents of the anti-war movement who do more to propel me toward war than anyone else." Isn't that basically the same thing as saying he was "anti-anti-war?"

Victor said...

Not "basically." Exactly.

Christopher Fotos said...

Chris B:

Seems to me most of these folks are asking for an accurate presentation of their positions for starters.

Mark:

They've got an entire blog and have done so for months. Indeed, counting your blog, Chris, they've had two blogs in which to make their views clear for months. So what's stopping them? Certainly not me....

Which dodges the point.

Chris noted that some of us are upset with Mark for misrepresenting our multiple positions. The extent to which we have successfully completed our own sentences is not exactly germane.

Mark must be aware that this is something he is repeatedly criticized for. So I would start there.

There may be a glimmer of true curiosity on his part, but some of it beggars belief. I mean, in his last post attacking me by name, Mark:

1. Er, attacks me by name

2. In so doing, attacks someone who can respond only smaller venues, as grateful as I am for them and

3. Surprise! Misrepresents my main point, and misrepresents it so perfectly that he has me saying the opposite of what I've been writing for months about the necessity of divining, if you'll pardon the expression, the single magisterium.

Mark's done this to me at least three times I'm aware of after banning me from the blog. I certainly don't read CAEI as much as I used to, so I don't know what else is there--it was two or three weeks after the fact that I found he had assaulted me as doing a "Catholics for Free Choice imitation" -- again, something I couldn't respond to at any comparable public scale.

Yet he is puzzled about having enemies.

I think there is a real person behind the raging facade, but come on. When a fellow misprepresents the arguments of his adversaries, dubs them with terms like apologist for Satan, rubber hose right, etc. etc., and then is puzzled about the usual result--well good grief. And I would say it is mainly in Mark's mind that he's made it clear he loathes arguments and not people. Speaking as an apologist for Satan, which is just one abusive label used how many hundreds of times over the past year or more? A writer ought to know better.

I could say much more but that about uses up my CAEI interest for the evening. I have another aside:

About praying for other people.

I think it's a very good idea.

But. In the context of this dispute.

I will now have the impudence to suggest that if anyone thinks someone would benefit from your prayers, just pray. And should the occasion arise that you believe combining your efforts with others' is beneficial, in my opinion it's much better to do so privately.

Yes, I am reacting to Greg's comment here, in the very first post. I do not doubt his sincerity for a moment. I do not want to start another tangent and, to repeat, do not doubt Greg's sincerity.

But in a disagreement like this, posted in a public forum, it cannot help but come across in a somewhat hostile way--that dude is so messed up, we need to pray for him!

Just a thought.

Annalucia said...

``Certainly I can be sarcastic and dismissive in my replies. Certainly turning the other cheek is a habit I have not yet acquired. I tend to give as good as I get, where possible."

Well, of course he's going to describe his own conduct in euphemistic terms. When did you ever hear a bully who admitted to being one?

Victor said...

Christopher:

It's possible ... likely, I would say ... that Greg's comment was intended to second my post's final sentence, about my being glad Lent was upcoming. It's not a secret in the past few days that I've been considering laying off Shea for a while (in part due to suggestions from Greg and others), and placed this in the context of the Lent season. I think Greg was more seconding that than "he's such an ass we can only pray for him."

Obviously all bets would be off if Shea decides to say that I blow goats or something like that (which, though more absurd, would be every bit as factual as his "it's all about Bush" claims).

Greg Mockeridge said...

I sympathize with Chris Fotos' concerns. But I have to ask the question of what practical good continually responding to his crap will do.

It seems as though the same arguments are being made over and over again.

And if our efforts are doing no good should we continue them?

I'm beginning to wonder if what is said on this blog only embloldens Mark.

Perhaps we have arrived at "shake the dust off our sandals" moment.

Dave Armstrong said...

Perhaps we have arrived at "shake the dust off our sandals" moment.

Amen!

Tom Connelly said...

I have been reading Mark's comments for a long time now, since the days (many years ago) when I regularly looked at Steve Ray's "Defenders of the Catholic Faith" site. Mark has passionate opinions on important issues, which he expresses passionately, sometimes polemically, and sometimes to excess. He's hardly alone in that respect.

Speaking as someone whom Mark recently branded (or at least I think he did) a "Catholic for Cruelty and Stupidity," I think that on certain hot-button issues, Mark can be guilty of rhetorical excess and unfair characterizations of the opinions of those with whom he disagrees. Sometimes he says things that are not true.

In such instances, I do not think he is "lying." I think he's wrong.

Mark Shea is not a liar.

Chris-2-4 said...

Tom:

I agree with you except for one nuance.

Mark is a liar by his own description. That which he uses to call Bush a liar.

Anonymous said...

Josiah says:

Ditto what Tom said. The examples typically given of Mark's "lies" seem to me to be examples of sloppiness and error rather than lies.

Christopher said...

Mark can be guilty of rhetorical excess and unfair characterizations of the opinions of those with whom he disagrees.

There is nonetheless a problem inherent in repeatedly adhering to the same misrepresentation, despite numerous attempts to correct him of the error. This seems to be the norm with CAEI and the torture debates in general.

It's not my fault if they describe themselves as "anti-anti-torture" or declare that torture is a "Randian anti-concept", or spend trillions of watts of electricity quibbling over just how much prisoner abuse you can get away with before it's technically, precisely, torture, or waste months complaining that the plain and obvious meaning of the Catechism is not "Don't torture or abuse prisoners. Treat them humanely" but "fundamentalist proof texting" that we can safely ignore if the exigencies of Bush policy demand it.

Tell me if that is an accurate presentation of the views of Victor and Torq, in light of what you've read of this blog?

Anonymous said...

Josiah says:

Is it an accurate presentation? No. Does Mark believe that it's an accurate presentation? Absolutely.

Phillip said...

But at what point after being told repeatedly that his belief is a misrepresentation does it become willfull and thus sinful?

Victor said...

Is it an accurate presentation? No. Does Mark believe that it's an accurate presentation? Absolutely.

But is that latter belief reasonable?

An inaccuracy growing from ignorance can still be culpable if the ignorance is the result of stubborn refusal to acknowledge facts.

Diane said...

Josiah: Good grief. By that logic, you can jutify anything.

"Were the Jews a menace? No. Did Hitler believe they were a menace? Yes."

Am not commenting on the present case, which is not my battle. (I have enough battles of my own, believe me.) I'm just sayin'...sincerity is not necessarily an excuse for unacceptable behavior. In general. not just in this particular case.

Phillip said...

Victor,
It looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time.

Diane said...

Philip: I agree. I believe that one should just take the other guy's word for it when the other guy says, "No, that's not what I meant. I meant X. I didn't mean Y."

If the accuser persists in retorting, "No, you meant Y"--well, what can one say? As Victor pointed out, the one who holds View X and who made Argument X is in the best position to determine whether he meant X or Y. Mark cannot read people's minds.

Anonymous said...

Josiah says:

I'm not trying to justify anything here. To say that Mark isn't lying doesn't mean that he's being reasonable. It just means that he isn't lying.

Given how personally Mark takes the lying charge, I think it's worth it to be precise on the point (I actually think it's worth it to be precise regardless, but whatever). If you think Mark is being unreasonable, uncharitable, or whatever, accuse him of that; don't accuse him of something else.

Dave Armstrong said...

I agree that if a person is repeatedly corrected and confronted with facts concerning the person he is attacking, yet persists, that it is right to describe this ongoing activity as "lying", precisely because at that point it is proven to be obstinate and directly in the face of facts. I've gone through this again and again with anti-Catholics and also (sadly) some fellow Catholics.

The problem is that we all tend to be so profoundly biased and convinced that we are right, that when someone gives us another point of view, we tend to just pass over it or ignore it, and thus perpetuate our obstinacy (in cases where we are truly wrong, and can be shown to be so from facts).

This is the sad state of human beings, so often seen on the Internet: I think it is a combination of pride, cynicism, lack of charity towards others, ignorance, and unwillingness to be sufficiently open-minded, so that necessary correction can take place and interpersonal harmony once again established.

We all need to seriously examine ourselves in this and determine if we are truly open to critique, correction, and (sometimes) rebuke. If not, we're in deep trouble spiritually and ethically (and that fruit will become apparent in interpersonal discord).

On the other hand, it should also be noted that sometimes truth-telling will get one in hot water, through no fault of one's own.

In Luke's variant of the Sermon on the Mount (chapter 6), our Lord says:

26: "Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

27: "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

28: bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

(RSV)

That's to say that not all conflict is a result of sin in both parties. It very well might be. We often cause our own miseries. But there are also cases where a person can be unpopular by speaking a hard truth.

Dave Armstrong said...

Philip: I agree. I believe that one should just take the other guy's word for it when the other guy says, "No, that's not what I meant. I meant X. I didn't mean Y."

If the accuser persists in retorting, "No, you meant Y"--well, what can one say? As Victor pointed out, the one who holds View X and who made Argument X is in the best position to determine whether he meant X or Y. Mark cannot read people's minds.


AMEN!

A M E N !!!!!!

Man, how many times I've gone through this with people: mind-readers who refuse to accept my report for my internal thought processes, intentions, and motivations. If people could just learn THIS, how much easier life would be, and happier people could be.

I think this tendency usually flows from personal insecurities myself (as well as jealousy and pride). It's difficult and wrong to apply those "diagnoses" to individuals, short of massive, compelling evidence, but it is true, considered as a general observation, I think,

Chris-2-4 said...

Is it an accurate presentation? No. Does Mark believe that it's an accurate presentation? Absolutely.

As I pointed out, Mark would be considered a LIAR by his OWN definition.

He calls Bush a LIAR for his comments about never having authorized torture. To Mark, it doesn't matter whether Bush believes that or not, he is a liar. The same standard should apply to him.

If someone persists in manifestly misrepresenting others opinions in the face of constant (constant) correction. You can no longer hide behind a defense of just being wrong.

Phillip said...

Having read Mark's recent post, I can't imagine that he is not deliberately misrepresenting others and therefore lying. The alternatives are that he is incapable of understanding the arguments in which case his intelligence is in question or he is skimming other's comments in which case he is being malicious in how he presents them.

Victor said...

The alternatives are that he is incapable of understanding the arguments

In the light of this and this (both comments absolutely oblivious to the REASONS WHY certain points are being made ... that altenative, that he is simply not capable of tracking an argument beyond first-level soundbytes, now strikes me as at least as likely as "lying" in the "I did not eat the cookies, mom" sense.

Shawn said...

Lent can serve as a time for a different approach than normal. In the case of projects being worked on, either a complete suspension of such projects or at the very least working on them in private a bit differently than is the norm for those with limited time for these kinds of matters. (Read: with greater deliberation and less haste.) It is also a good time for reflection upon our own shortcomings in the process, and Lord knows we all have them.

So based both on my own private musings in recent days and instincts on these matters and also taking into account what others on this thread have said on the matter{1}, I resolve to follow if not a complete suspension of related projects to nonetheless postpone any public airing of them until after Lent.

I am not sure if I will follow the "complete suspension" route or the one of working intermittently but taking greater time and deliberation on them should they be worked on at all.

But either way, I intend to approach these things in the spirit of the season that is upon us starting tomorrow. Lent after all should involve a spirit of greater reflection and prayer than normal: patterns befitting a season of penance and personal accounting.

Note:

{1} Yes, even some of yours David ;-)

Victor said...

I second what Shawn said. So today will probably mark my last public word on Shea for a while (the "goat-blowing exception" from above duly noted.

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