tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post115989224535958437..comments2023-11-02T03:51:26.343-07:00Comments on Coalition for Fog: Glad to see that this is proceeding in a fairly civil fashion ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1160695212318338822006-10-12T16:20:00.000-07:002006-10-12T16:20:00.000-07:00Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it an article o...<I>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it an article of Catholic faith that her infallibility prevents her from positively enjoining intrinsically evil actions upon her children?</I><BR/><BR/>No, infallibility only affects dogmatic teachings on faith and morals.<BR/><BR/>Disciplinary measures eg "you are allowed/ought to tortuure in this case right now or else" are not covered by the charism of Chris Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584323901208927740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1160371843847180022006-10-08T22:30:00.000-07:002006-10-08T22:30:00.000-07:00Chris Sullivan:By that logic, torture does not coe...Chris Sullivan:<BR/><BR/>By that logic, torture does not coerce the will, since the only thing being coerced is the bodily function of speech. The waterboarder could care less what the terrorist thinks or believes: he just wants him to give crucial information.<BR/><BR/>But let us return to the fact that the Church has in time past ORDERED her children to torture heretics, and threatened an EricGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06992520299275498417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1160190398435532682006-10-06T20:06:00.000-07:002006-10-06T20:06:00.000-07:00You guys clearly have the edge in this debate. The...You guys clearly have the edge in this debate. The only thing I would fault you for would be excessively personal remarks (I think Mark is guilty too). <BR/><BR/>I'd like to see Mark Shea answer point-by-point, but that doesn't seem to be his style. There seem to be two kinds of people in the world . . . ones that do that and those who will not or cannot or dare not.<BR/><BR/>In Him,<BR/><BR/>Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159923900039907392006-10-03T18:05:00.000-07:002006-10-03T18:05:00.000-07:00"To restrain the body is a different thing than to..."To restrain the body is a different thing than to coerce the will."<BR/><BR/>not different often enough to be helpful to your argument. very often they are the same thing. you want the two to be mutually exclusive. they are not. they are not *always* the same thing, but they are the same thing often enough that to imagine one without the other is meaningless.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159919590368840732006-10-03T16:53:00.000-07:002006-10-03T16:53:00.000-07:00steve golay,The will is an attribute of the spirit...steve golay,<BR/><BR/>The will is an attribute of the spirit, not of the body.<BR/><BR/>Angels are pure spirit, and they have a will which is either good in the case of the good angels or evil in the case of the demons.<BR/><BR/>God is also pure spirit and has a will, which we pray in the Our Father may be done.<BR/><BR/>When we die our spirit will go to heaven, hell or purgatory where we will Chris Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584323901208927740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159916753732518072006-10-03T16:05:00.000-07:002006-10-03T16:05:00.000-07:00the body is the instrument of the willTrue.But the...<I>the body is the instrument of the will</I><BR/><BR/>True.<BR/><BR/>But the body is not the same thing as the will.<BR/><BR/>To restrain the body is a different thing than to coerce the will.<BR/><BR/>To coerce the will is to apply so much violence to a man that his own will is broken and can be forced to will whatever his coercer requires.<BR/><BR/>The phrase "coerce the will" is about Chris Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584323901208927740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159916178551470322006-10-03T15:56:00.000-07:002006-10-03T15:56:00.000-07:00um, the body is the instrument of the will.um, the body is the instrument of the will.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159915297180102012006-10-03T15:41:00.000-07:002006-10-03T15:41:00.000-07:00Handcuffs don't coerce the will.They restrain the ...Handcuffs don't coerce the will.<BR/><BR/>They restrain the body.<BR/><BR/>To coerce the will is to apply so much violence to a man that his own will is broken and can be forced to will whatever his coercer requires.<BR/><BR/>To coerce the will is intrinsically evil because God made man with free will so to break a man's will is to break what God has purposely endowed man with and what man uses Chris Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584323901208927740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159913993304019662006-10-03T15:19:00.000-07:002006-10-03T15:19:00.000-07:00ever heard of handcuffs?ever heard of handcuffs?kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1159910843978601162006-10-03T14:27:00.000-07:002006-10-03T14:27:00.000-07:00If all attempts to coerce the will are intrisicall...<I>If all attempts to coerce the will are intrisically evil, then there can be no room for domestic law enforcement as it is currently understood.</I><BR/><BR/>This is not correct.<BR/><BR/>Law enforcement exists to :-<BR/><BR/>1. Bring criminals to justice.<BR/>2. Punish criminals.<BR/>3. Protect the community from criminal actions.<BR/><BR/>None of these functions require coercion of the Chris Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584323901208927740noreply@blogger.com