tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post117073283863154889..comments2023-11-02T03:51:26.343-07:00Comments on Coalition for Fog: Oh goody ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170886019623257592007-02-07T14:06:00.000-08:002007-02-07T14:06:00.000-08:00Well, I mentioned it the other comments, but I sti...Well, I mentioned it the other comments, but I still think it needs clarification. Benedict XVI stated in his Regensburg address that:<BR/><BR/>"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul."<BR/><BR/>Not only that but that it is "unreasonable" to utilize compulsion in religion and "not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature" (approvingly Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05218434053331256206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170812492996246052007-02-06T17:41:00.000-08:002007-02-06T17:41:00.000-08:00Josiah,Thanks and good night.Josiah,<BR/><BR/>Thanks and good night.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170811656574490882007-02-06T17:27:00.000-08:002007-02-06T17:27:00.000-08:00Josiah says: I didn't mean to attribute some malic...Josiah says: <BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to attribute some malicious intent to you (just the opposite, actually). But I'm more than happy to let the matter drop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170810895069902712007-02-06T17:14:00.000-08:002007-02-06T17:14:00.000-08:00Patrick,Thanks for your response which provides li...Patrick,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your response which provides light and not smoke.<BR/><BR/>So we are left with the question of what distinguishes sleep deprivation from waterboarding/finger snapping?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170810488455788492007-02-06T17:08:00.000-08:002007-02-06T17:08:00.000-08:00Josiah,Interesting but no.Patrick orginal response...Josiah,<BR/><BR/>Interesting but no.<BR/><BR/>Patrick orginal response was sleep deprivation is torture not because of what sleep deprivation IS, but because of how it would be enforced. But the same could be said of most disciplinary measures. I just happened to pick time-out. Sorry, but that is how the logic simply follows. <BR/><BR/>Patick clears his point up in his response. He doesn't Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170804168292853312007-02-06T15:22:00.000-08:002007-02-06T15:22:00.000-08:00Let me clarify what I was trying to say about slee...Let me clarify what I was trying to say about sleep deprivation. There is a subtle distinction I failed to explain very well.<BR/><BR/>First: it is not torture to tell your prisoner he must stay awake - assuming of course it does not go on so long as to be life-threatening.<BR/><BR/>Second: the consequence of failing to stay awake may itself be torturous in and of itself. Then again, it may notPatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03402788402018206599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170799483441780932007-02-06T14:04:00.000-08:002007-02-06T14:04:00.000-08:00Josiah says: Phillip, I'm not sure I get the purpo...Josiah says: <BR/><BR/>Phillip, I'm not sure I get the purpose of your original statement. <BR/><BR/>Patrick says that anything can be torture if not doing it if its backed up with the threat of beatings. You respond by asking if it's torture to put a child in time out. I'll grant you that putting a child in time-out isn't generally considered torture. But then, putting a child in time-out Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170797508978031472007-02-06T13:31:00.000-08:002007-02-06T13:31:00.000-08:00Josiah says: In the passage Chris quotes, Father H...Josiah says: <BR/><BR/>In the passage Chris quotes, Father Harrison reaches three conclusions: <BR/><BR/>First, he concludes that Catholic teaching has condemned as intrinsically evil the intentional infliction of severe pain if done to extract confessions, or if done extra-judicially. <BR/><BR/>Second, he concludes that Catholic teaching does not condemn and could not condemn corporal punishmentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170796610212424172007-02-06T13:16:00.000-08:002007-02-06T13:16:00.000-08:00Josiah,It is not an analogy. It is applying Patri...Josiah,<BR/><BR/>It is not an analogy. It is applying Patrick's logic.<BR/><BR/>Let's summarize the logic:<BR/><BR/>A is torture if B is done.<BR/>(in Patrick's case sleep deprivation is torture if beatings are done to enforce it.)<BR/><BR/>Change the terms and get:<BR/><BR/>Time-out is torture if beatings are done to enforce it.<BR/><BR/>No analogy at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170795662515407662007-02-06T13:01:00.000-08:002007-02-06T13:01:00.000-08:00In hopes of not appearing to be a “moonbat’, I thi...<I>In hopes of not appearing to be a “moonbat’, I think Mark is characteristically misrepresenting my argument</I><BR/><BR/>Surely you jest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170795657334902012007-02-06T13:00:00.000-08:002007-02-06T13:00:00.000-08:00Josiah says: One would assume, Phillip, that if yo...Josiah says: <BR/><BR/>One would assume, Phillip, that if you send your child to time-out you don't back that up with threats of repeated beatings. So the analogy is a strange one, to say the least.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170795531674963212007-02-06T12:58:00.000-08:002007-02-06T12:58:00.000-08:00Chris, I don't think indefectability is really an ...<I>Chris, I don't think indefectability is really an issue here. If you read Father Harrison's articles, he concludes that there isn't anything in Catholic tradition that would prevent the Church from holding that torture was intrinsically immoral.</I><BR/><BR/>Josiah, indefectability is the great over-arching question Mark has not engaged, given past Church practice and authority on the issue. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170794885686531792007-02-06T12:48:00.000-08:002007-02-06T12:48:00.000-08:00JOSEPH D'HIPPOLITO SAYS...Torq, I wish to thank yo...<B>JOSEPH D'HIPPOLITO SAYS...</B><BR/><BR/>Torq, I wish to thank you for, for lack of a better term, defending me in the opening of your post.<BR/><BR/>Shea, I have been praying, and will continue to pray, that God impliment Psalm 109 in your life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170792425727298542007-02-06T12:07:00.000-08:002007-02-06T12:07:00.000-08:00In hopes of not appearing to be a “moonbat’, I thi...In hopes of not appearing to be a “moonbat’, I think Mark is characteristically misrepresenting my argument. The point was initially made in response to Patrick’s response to my question as to whether sleep deprivation was torture. His response was that whether it was torture was predicated on how the sleep deprivation was enforced:<BR/><BR/>“The sleep question again begs the next step: how Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170772175875176512007-02-06T06:29:00.000-08:002007-02-06T06:29:00.000-08:00Josiah says: Chris, I don't think indefectability ...Josiah says: <BR/><BR/>Chris, I don't think indefectability is really an issue here. If you read Father Harrison's articles, he concludes that there isn't anything in Catholic tradition that would prevent the Church from holding that torture was intrinsically immoral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170738076842246612007-02-05T21:01:00.000-08:002007-02-05T21:01:00.000-08:00Torq,Mark's point number 8 (An anointing of atheis...Torq,<BR/><BR/>Mark's point number 8 (<I>An anointing of atheist Heather MacDonald as the go-to gal for all Catholics interested in the morality and efficacy of "productive" torture.</I>) is utterly incoherent. What in the world is he talking about? Nowhere in the articles cited, which Mark cannot <I>possibly</I> have read, does MacDonald advocate torture, productive or otherwise. Nothing in Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-1170736803827166032007-02-05T20:40:00.000-08:002007-02-05T20:40:00.000-08:00The upside of the Torq/Akin etc. approach is that ...The upside of the Torq/Akin etc. approach is that it manages to find a way to preserve indefectability, truly the foundational issue here. <BR/><BR/>Now, I was going to develop a point about Mark just waving this away--how, for example, it seems unlikely that he's read Fr. Brian Harrison's lengthy, erudite, respectful and by no means pro-torture <A HREF="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html" REL=Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com