tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post4491487318826720537..comments2023-11-02T03:51:26.343-07:00Comments on Coalition for Fog: Not being a subscriber to First Things ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-243239506857612842007-07-16T14:24:00.000-07:002007-07-16T14:24:00.000-07:00Shea 7/16/07:". . . O'Leary takes Fr. Brian Harris...Shea 7/16/07:<BR/><BR/>". . . O'Leary takes Fr. Brian Harrison, the Ratzinger Fan Club and various other fans of the Pope to task (rightly in my view) for somehow suddenly becoming extremely interested in trying to figure out a way to reconcile torture with the bleedin' obvious teaching of the Church, just at the moment when it was most convenient for supporters of President Bush's policies of Christopher Blosserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385159494196923575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-77063865982198057442007-07-16T08:12:00.000-07:002007-07-16T08:12:00.000-07:00Shea 9/29/06:"To their credit, most conservative C...Shea 9/29/06:<BR/><BR/>"To their credit, most conservative Catholics recognize, at some level, that you can't just declare the Magisterium dead wrong on a matter of faith and morals and expect to be taken seriously as a Catholic. Therefore, those who are still looking for an escape hatch in the debate use the second strategy, which is to say they aren't advocating torture and that the techniques kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-89218120279210467092007-07-16T07:58:00.000-07:002007-07-16T07:58:00.000-07:00"You keep telling yourself that Kathleen."what?"You keep telling yourself that Kathleen."<BR/><BR/>what?kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-15866516725468803292007-07-16T06:29:00.000-07:002007-07-16T06:29:00.000-07:00First word of my previous post should be Shea, not...First word of my previous post should be Shea, not she. So just a typo - not trying to question Shea's manhood.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-11064656593289519992007-07-16T06:25:00.000-07:002007-07-16T06:25:00.000-07:00She's bad enough on his own that we don't need to ...She's bad enough on his own that we don't need to exaggerate his opinions. No, he has never actually said that it is a sin to ask what the definition of torture is. But he has certainly bristled at many attempts to have this very debate, and he mocks anyone who dares ask the question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-37908902576548546702007-07-15T16:53:00.000-07:002007-07-15T16:53:00.000-07:00You keep telling yourself that Kathleen.You keep telling yourself that Kathleen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-90152551646196256652007-07-15T16:30:00.000-07:002007-07-15T16:30:00.000-07:00i've produced evidence, as much as i care to. an...i've produced evidence, as much as i care to. and also (ahem) It's called sarcasm, mark adams. Sarcasm.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-16649750790273642352007-07-15T15:47:00.000-07:002007-07-15T15:47:00.000-07:00I'm not endorsing Shea's reasoning or methodology....I'm not endorsing Shea's reasoning or methodology. I am saying he has never articulated the position that you attribute to him. And so far you have produced no evidence to indicate I am wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-82698293911077124852007-07-15T13:36:00.000-07:002007-07-15T13:36:00.000-07:00sorry, no dice. Shea's equating the recognition o...sorry, no dice. Shea's equating the recognition of torture to implementation of The Golden Rule is just an exercise in avoiding definition of torture (it's also nonsense, but i'll let that go for now). it's a punt. a cop-out. And anyway, as shea says, "there's no need" to define torture -- so why would he do it? Whereas clearly Neuhaus believes there IS a need to define torture, or else kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-85287155337355237932007-07-15T10:46:00.000-07:002007-07-15T10:46:00.000-07:00i reached a conclusion about shea's hazy, incohere...<I>i reached a conclusion about shea's hazy, incoherent thoughts about torture after reading Shea's words, and my conclusion is more than reasonable. why don't you give me a quote showing that Shea is open to discussing definitions of torture and thinks catholic teaching permits such discussion, to prove your point? your position that you are "pretty sure" proves nothing. the burden of proof is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-79071902781889028042007-07-15T09:44:00.000-07:002007-07-15T09:44:00.000-07:00how does Shea, in your words, "know the hearts and...<I>how does Shea, in your words, "know the hearts and minds of people"?</I><BR/><BR/>It's called sarcasm Kathleen. Sarcasm. Shea's telepathy has been a <A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?q=site:coalitionforfog.blogspot.com+telepathy&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-28,GGGL:en" REL="nofollow">frequent topic here</A> at the CfF.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-55738951165356049922007-07-15T07:23:00.000-07:002007-07-15T07:23:00.000-07:00PS: mark adams, how does Shea, in your words, "kno...PS: mark adams, how does Shea, in your words, "know the hearts and minds of people"? in your close perusal of shea's writings, i'm wondering if you can find that out for us as well. dying to know here.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-78076417036972037262007-07-15T07:18:00.000-07:002007-07-15T07:18:00.000-07:00mark adams, i reached a conclusion about shea's ha...mark adams, i reached a conclusion about shea's hazy, incoherent thoughts about torture after reading Shea's words, and my conclusion is more than reasonable. why don't you give me a quote showing that Shea is open to discussing definitions of torture and thinks catholic teaching permits such discussion, to prove your point? your position that you are "pretty sure" proves nothing. the burden kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-79213706218383304512007-07-14T22:20:00.000-07:002007-07-14T22:20:00.000-07:00kathleen,Your quote does not show that Shea's "sta...kathleen,<BR/><BR/>Your quote does not show that Shea's "stated position is that to even ASK for such a definition is against Catholic teaching." It shows perhaps that he thinks the question has been answered. <BR/><BR/>Shea's position is that because he knows the hearts and minds of certain people he knows that when they ask about the definition of torture they are insincere and just trying toAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-64263934462272609632007-07-14T21:25:00.000-07:002007-07-14T21:25:00.000-07:00Shea, 9/29/06, after the briefest google search"Bo...Shea, 9/29/06, after the briefest google search<BR/><BR/>"Bottom line: for all those agonizing about how to define "torture", there's no need. Army regs have defined inhumane treatment for ever so long. Nothing has changed in human nature that requires redefinition of inhumane treatment. If it's not broken, don't fix it. And if it was inhumane and therefore intrinsically immoral on 9/10/01, it kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-57613757044970939512007-07-14T20:20:00.000-07:002007-07-14T20:20:00.000-07:00Contrary to what kathleen says, I am pretty sure i...Contrary to what kathleen says, I am pretty sure it is not Shea's "stated position . . . that to even ASK for such a definition is against Catholic teaching." <BR/><BR/>The more significant part of the Fr. Neuhaus quote is this:<BR/><BR/>"And, perhaps understandably, there is no effort to address in detail the so-called hard cases, such as the 'ticking bomb' scenario."<BR/><BR/>Fr. Neuhaus seems Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-26371772266875518042007-07-14T18:14:00.000-07:002007-07-14T18:14:00.000-07:00"No such statement is perfect and I would want som..."No such statement is perfect and I would want some changes - especially in connection with the definition of torture - before signing this one, but 'An Evangelical Declaration Against Torture' is an exceedingly valuable contribution to a public debte of which we dare not tire." <BR/><BR/>I see nothing here with which I disagree. Debate and definition are what most of us have been seeking in theAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-22588843149964124102007-07-14T17:58:00.000-07:002007-07-14T17:58:00.000-07:00CFF 1, Shea 0.. Neuhaus says, "In attempting to d...CFF 1, Shea 0.. Neuhaus says, "In attempting to define what constitutes torture, the statement is somewhat promiscuous .... No such statement is perfect and I would want some changes - especially in connection with the definition of torture - before signing this one ...." <BR/><BR/>sorry, Shea. Neuhaus clearly states he wants a more precise, "non-promiscuous" definition of torture. Shea's kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30405512.post-77252229773179433842007-07-14T13:47:00.000-07:002007-07-14T13:47:00.000-07:00After some opening remarks, Father Neuhaus qutoes ...After some opening remarks, Father Neuhaus qutoes the following passage from the statement:<BR/><BR/>"When torture is employed by a state, that act communicates to the world and to one's own people that human lives are not sacred, that they are not reflections of the Creator, that they are expendable, exploitable, and disposable, and that their intrinsic value can be overridden by utilitarian Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com