Saturday, October 13, 2007

A reading from the Book of Shea ...

Like some of the others here, I am not opposed to Mark's idea that he write a book about torture for a lot of the same reasons that Victor and Blackadder laid out in the comments of the previous thread. I would actually be fairly interested to read a book that would involve a serious study of the Catholic approach to interrogation, how the US military has approached the problem, and end with a discussion of which forms of coercion that he believes it is licit to support. Mark's general rhetorical sleight-of-hand under which he claims on one hand not to be an expert in the subject yet is more than happy to determine when someone is right or wrong on the issue something that I think it will be very difficult to sustain once he starts writing beyond a few hundred words. If nothing else, perhaps he'll gain sufficient historical perspective to recognize (as anyone who has ever read Republic of Fear would) that torture would exist in Iraq, like it does in most Third World nations, regardless of whether or not we invaded. He will also may even learn enough about real history to drop his zero-sum mentality in this area and refrain from making comments like this:
The fact is, we *have* done just that in the past with Nazis, Commies and Imperial Japanese and we can do it now--without torture.

Given that American police continued to regularly use to what most people today would likely consider torture ("the third degree") well into the 1930s as a regular tool of ordinary law enforcement, this is simply counter-factual. This is not intended to justify such techniques, but if Mark wants to invoke history and tradition to suit his point then he needs to take off the rose-colored glasses and ditch his zero-sum mentality when discussing these matters.

Similarly, he going to have seriously engage those Catholics who differ with him on his view of Gaudium et Spes. This includes Father Harrison, Jimmy Akin, and Dave Armstrong among others. I am well aware that there are readers here who hold at least two of the three of these individuals in some level of contempt. Because my interest is in points of truth rather than individuals, I care far more about their actual positions than whether or not they prefer me and Victor to Mark. The reasons for these opinions aside, it is my hope that in writing a book Mark is going to feel under an obligation to actually acknowledge a difference of opinion here or explain why he doesn't believe there to be one.

One other thing that should be kept in mind about Mark writing up a book is that the standards of libel are a lot firmer when it goes to print as opposed to what he writes on his blog. If he intends to start claiming that Michael Ledeen and other prominent neocons support torture, the murder of prisoners, has called for our soldiers to commit war crimes, et al. he may well find himself sued. Victor and I have discussed this before after Victor noted that any decent libel lawyer looking at Mark's various comments on Ledeen over the years could probably find ample grist for a lawsuit. Now that probably isn't a priority right now because a lot of people write crazy things about Ledeen online, but if Mark publishes said claims in a book to that effect I could easily see that situation changing. I would note now as I have before that if Mark's claims against Ledeen are as clear-cut and persuasive as he believes them to be, it is an odd thing indeed that the man's manifold political enemies have refrained from employing them to their advantage. It wasn't like the American Conservative had any such compunctions when it came to labeling the man a fascist in his political beliefs several years back.

Of a similar vein, I have noted repeatedly that Mark's lack of willingness to understand his opponents' positions has contributed to one the reasons why so many people find him difficult to stand. This has led him to make some very bizarre arguments, including a conflation of neoconservatism with realism, Machiavellianism with utopian Wilsonianism, and generally a very confused discussion of political ideology in general that leaves one with the same impression that Inigo had of Vizzini in The Princess Bride regarding his frequent use of the word "inconceiveable:"
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

My primary fear regarding Mark writing a book on this issue is that it will very quickly move beyond the issue of torture into a more general anathema sit against the Bush administration, the war in Iraq, neocons, American conservatism, and the like written in his typically emotional style and lack of understanding about the issues he discusses. In other words, a less eloquent version of the standard Pat Buchanan screed that is lacking only an indictment of illegal immigration. If he does this, he will have quickly moved beyond the realm of a Catholic apologist who comments on politics into the area of a political writer. And if he is going to make those kind of claims in print (something he has generally avoided doing until now), then he can be called to account for them the same way any other political writer might without being able to claim ignorance on matters of politics because he is primarily an apologist.

Friday, October 05, 2007

Mark continues to win friends and influence people ...

As shown both here and here. I could point out the logical fallacies, straw man arguments, and above all his complete lack of charity (all of which have been fixtures for him on this issue), but at this point I think these are pretty clear to anyone who takes the time to read the thread. And while I know Mark regards us here at CFF as nothing more than craven apologists for the Bush administration (we aren't, but that is neither here nor there), I would note that by his own criteria both BenYachov and Jimmy Akin (the latter of whom has made the unforgivable sin of referencing "24," which I don't even watch, when discussing the issue of torture) are part of the "dependable legions of war crimes apologists" who "rite more apologetics for Outrages for the Fatherland and to once again rally the Hannitized realpoliticians to fresh yawps of bloodlust and "24"-induced 'realism'."

Regarding the substantive issue that he is (badly) trying to draw attention to, you don't have to be Mark Shea to read that New York Times story and come away from it with a bad taste in your mouth. If the administration believes that these types of procedures are necessary, then they should come out and defend them in a public forum instead of all this cloak and dagger crap. Judging from polling data on the issue, it isn't at all clear from a public policy perspective that this would be all that controversial an argument. This is particularly the case when their credibility is at an all-time low and they had to know that something like this was going to come out if they tried to do it quietly. As a result, now they have yet another scandal on their hands and fewer and fewer people willing to defend them.

Going back to Mark for a moment, he has said before that he doesn't favor impeaching Bush. This may be, as Publius suggests, because he is simply ignorant of how impeachment works. I would be interested to know, if he operates on reason rather than emotion (as appears to be the case), why it took this story in particular to push him over the edge.

And lest we forget, he doesn't hate Bush. Not at all.

Tuesday, October 02, 2007

As I said before, blogging has become less and less of a priority ...

The further Mark continues to identify himself with the fringe politics of Ron Paul. And while I think he makes a number of very valid points in his criticism of the Giuliani campaign here and here, Mark not surprisingly goes off the rails and declares that the Bush administration "did a fine job of playing on everybody's fear and whipping up the tubthumpers against traitors and cowards who doubted the wisdom of the Iraq War." Um, no they didn't, or one assumes that public support for the war wouldn't be continuing to hover at precipitous levels, though I believe it has increased somewhat of late due to the change in strategy under the superb leadership of General Petraeus. I notice that Mark has been rather silent about these positive trends of late, though he seems to be eagerly following the nuances of Hillary Clinton's position on torture.

In any case, Mark is essentially restating the same criticism that I myself have on occasion about Giuliani, which is that his "vote for me because I was mayor on 9/11" campaign is the equivalent of John Kerry's "vote for me because I served in Vietnam" campaign. This is not to imply moral equivalency between Giuliani and Kerry, but simply to note that a slogan is not the same thing as a campaign. I would also note that the fact that he sends surrogates out to the press in order to make dubious claims at his behest strikes me as indication enough that he doesn't have any indication of filling out his issues at this point.

And while on the subject of Giuliani, while it is certainly true that social conservatives are just as fractious as any other group in the GOP coalition, might I note that both the their overt threat to go third party and do some major damage to the GOP in the process completely discredits the argument that Mark has been pushing for the last several years. In short, he has argued that there aren't any serious social conservatives in the GOP and that the entire party leadership are only concerned with money and power. My guess is that he'll either argue that these are social conservatives who have finally seen the light and need to support Ron Paul or he'll hagiography them and seek to demonize anyone anyone who disagrees with the wisdom of running a third party.

As I read through Mark's blog, I also note that neither his tact nor his grasp on reality has improved. A program to put captured al-Qaeda prisoners through what appears to be the equivalent of cult deprogramming is denounced as a Stalinist reeducation camp. Might I point out that the alternative (and the one that Iraqis would be likely to pursue in our absence) would be to execute them en masse? Odd that he would object to an alternative to that, given that he continues to falsely accuse Michael Ledeen of having advocated just that.

Mark's grasp of history has likewise not improved:
We invaded Iraq because the Administration continually suggested there was some link between Iraq and 9/11 and because the Administration insisted there was a lasting, grave, and certain threat that Iraq would deploy WMDs against us. The link is non-existent and the WMDs weren't there. And recent stories are making it clear that the Administration was determined to attack Iraq whether the WMDs were there or not.

I would love to see him document this, given that he has been called to carpet for repeating this false claim on numerous occasions, including on this blog. Of course, this also occurs in that very thread on the subject of Mark's charge that the US has set a Stalinist reeducation camp in Iraq, not that Mark allows such ritually impure sources as supporters of the Iraq war to taint his views.

Similarly, Mark jumped the gun yet again and assumed that the existence of an abridged transcript is the equivalent of the US setting up a full-blown Ministry of Truth and all the totalitarian information control that goes with it. He probably still thinks that, near as I can determine from what he's posted. As ever at Chez Shea, any charity and honest intellectual examination end where the Bush administration begins. No doubt he still believes we're planning to invade Iran any day now.

This might be a useful exercise for Mark on why Ron Paul is a fringe candidate. When you parrot enough crackpot ideas uncritically, people tend to get the impression that you're more than a little looney. Through his pandering to the 9/11 truth crowd, desire to revive an isolationist foreign policy, reestablish the gold standard, and so on, Paul has had more than his share of crazy ideas for people to justifiably label him as a crackpot and a nut. Giuliani's ideas are evil, but they are unfortunately not regarded as crazy by the general public. Since we are a democracy, we have to respect the positions of the demos. Which is why I think that Giuliani is far more dangerous to the conservative movement long-term than Paul ever will be.

Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Mark comments ...

No doubt as a feature of our continuing irrelevance and his lack of interest in our blog. And at a time when I was just about to post a prayer request for his current woes. As Victor and I have repeatedly stated here, as much as we may disagree with Mark we have no desire to see him suffer, either personally or financially. I am aware that there are other people here who may have different opinions on that and I would strongly suggest that such individuals keep it to themselves.

In any case, Mark writes:
No. Mark hasn't [embraced Ron Paul]. But I'm sure it must be a consolation to tell yourself he has.

Short of a public declaration of fealty, it sure seems to this observer as though Mark has. Given his own argument that Victor and I shill for the GOP, I hope he isn't too terribly surprised when what's good for the goose is good for the gander. By the same standards that Mark uses to illustrate that Victor and I desire the abuse of prisoners and war crimes (to say nothing of the election of Rudy Giuliani!), I don't think that it is at all hard to document the same for him with regard to Ron Paul. The complete 180 on libertarianism where before it was a selfish ideology for people without children, knee-jerk defense of the man despite the more egregious things that he's said (including opposition to the war in Afghanistan), the anger at the electorate that he isn't gaining in the polls (except when he is - see the following), and then the embrace of conspiracism whenever any serious criticism of the man gains traction all seem to qualify in this regard.
The funny thing is, Rod Dreher has a lot more unabashed enthusiasm for both Ron Paul and Daniel Larison than my ocassional mention of them demonstrates. Similarly, his words about the Bushies and their conduct of the war have been none too kind for some months now. But since Rod is a friend of Victor's this does not come up here. Oh sure, diane and pauli like to obsess about Rod, but the managers of this site would prefer to keep the focus on Shea-hating. So they simply ignore it in favor of expanding my various chance comments into an opportunity for dimestore psychoanalysis. You never see loooooong ranting pieces about how Rod is cracking up and a menace to the Republic who can safely be ignored (except when you are obsessing over him).

A couple of points here. First of all, Rod is now Eastern Orthodox rather than Catholic, which to put it crudely means that while I continue to pray for his return to the Church, he can say whatever he likes without me worrying about a scandal to the faithful. He has also never tried to pass off his nuttier political or social views as being in synch with the Catholic Church (indeed, his conversion to Orthodoxy would seem to preclude such things) or questioned the fidelity to the Church of those with whom he disagrees. Rod's main shtick, near as I can determine, is crunchy conservatism, which while I disagree strenuously with it as an ideology am not too worried about because it has been repeatedly critiqued by every respectable non-paleocon conservative media outlet that has addressed it. I'm not too worried about the coming crunchy conservative revolution because it is Monty Python's dead parrot sketch as a political ideology. Rod has also been willing to engage those who disagree with him in substantive debates, such as those that occurred on NRO before he decided that he was so much smarter than Jonah Goldberg.

Were Mark's political or theological ideas subjected to this same degree of serious criticism, I probably wouldn't be blogging here. Instead, they have grown a lot shriller and intolerant over time and near as I can determine few within the professional apologetics community have been willing to point out that some of the stuff that he writes, particularly whenever he gets going about neocons or the war, is literally Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and drawn from less than reputable sources. If Mark wants to embrace fringe political views, that's between himself and his critical mindset, but I have a big problem with them being touted from the bully pulpit of the more widely-read Catholic blogs. And this goes way beyond whatever he thinks about interrogation, despite his attempts to pigeonhole Victor and myself into that category because we don't accept his fundamentalist reading of Gaudium et Spes. I have compared this to the issue of Sungenis before he lost his following and I think that it's a perfectly valid one.
Me: I don't mind Rod's remarks on politics much, but I do think the hypocrisy of Victor and his various partners-in-dialogue here is pretty funny. The personal really is the political, ain't it? Why not just rename the place "We Hate Mark Shea and we Can't Stand Zippy Either" and be done with it?

As a practical matter, neither Victor nor myself write that much about Zippy. No doubt that's because (as in the case of Rod) we're secretly in league with him and don't want to expose the connection lest it harm the broader conspiracy. From my point of view, his level of personal arrogance and frequent declarations of his own correctness as a way of ending an argument tend to preclude him developing a broad following. To the extent that he is important, it is largely because Mark tends to outsource most of the actual arguing for some of his claims to him. That said, I don't hate Mark Shea because I don't really know the man. At the end of the day, he is ultimately a stranger who makes crazy comments online with a habit of hurling ad hominems at my character. I could care less for what he thinks about me, but as long as he continues to write crazy stuff I remain concerned for my fellow Catholics. Thankfully, his continued descent into the magical land of Ron Paul has made that less and less of an issue as he becomes more and more identified with the lunatic fringe.

Theocracy

I'll get to what Mark wrote in a minute, but first I want to challenge what both Joe D'Hippolito and Diane wrote about theocracy:
If your analysis of Mark's political Weltanschaung is correct, then he is no different than many ultra-conservative Catholics who (like Buchanan) effectively decry modern civilization in favor of a quasi-medieval model in which the Church, aided by an allegedly benevolent government, had near-totalitarian control over everybody's lives.

I don't think that this description of the Middle Ages is at all true, for the simple fact that totalitarianism was very much a late nineteenth and early twentieth century innovation. Technology (particularly the ability to send and receive information) has done wonders as far as extending the power of the state and there is no way that any monarch from Charlemagne to Napoleon could achieve such feats as those of East Germany where roughly 20% of the population was under surveillance at any given time.

Secondly, I don't think that applying that any kind of totalitarian model to Mark is at all fair to him. For all of his criticism of the modern form of liberal democracy that he believes is run by millionnaires, he retains a very proud view of the Founding Fathers and the United States in general up until about the time that the Baby Boomers gained control of the state. He hasn't ever exactly explained how our political system is to be freed from the grips of the oligarchs (and I don't think that being ruled by oligarchs is necessarily inconsistent with having a society in synch with Catholic teaching, otherwise a lot of medieval Italian city-states are going to get disqualified) but then the practical policy consequences of some of Mark's nuttier ideas have never exactly been at the forefront of his jeremiads. My guess is that he favors some kind of system that "gets money out of politics," which is one of the reasons that I have always been curious concerning his view of the campaign finance reform laws.

On the argument that theocracy is the only legitimate form of government, I would just link to this Orthodox defense of sacred monarchy. I think that the Catechism takes the wisest approach to the issue of government with its emphasis on justice and the common good rather than on the particular forms of government.

Saturday, September 15, 2007

All Hail the Great and Honorable Zipp Huang Shangdi!

In response to the comments of the previous post. While I can't speak for Victor, posting at CoF has been lessened of late due to a combination of factors including the fact that I was of the understanding that Mark was on something of an extended hiatus. That issue having been resolved, part of the problem with continuing a regular posting schedule for CoF has to do with the fact that at the end of the day you really do end up running out of material.

Mark has chosen, near as I can determine, to embrace the fringe political movement of Ron Paul, whose both rhetoric and followers bear a great deal of resemblance to their left-wing counterparts in the Lyndon Larouche movement. In retrospect, I probably should not be surprised by this since Mark has been heading into fringe political territory for awhile now, whether it be his flirtations with the Crunchy Cons or the kookier aspects of the anti-war movement. It seems to me that for all of his warnings about a unified theory of explaining everything that he has embraced just that in his understanding of America. He believes that our representative democracy is essentially a shell game played between wealthy groups of cynical and secular elites who seek to spread abortion and godlessness around the world. While he admits that there was once a time when this was not so, he now regards America as totally identified with Babylon and as such is genuinely uncertain as to whether any of it is worth defending. After all, he is certain that it is the West that will ultimately produce the Antichrist.

The foreign policy view to which Mark now ascribes through synthesis with the likes of Ron Paul and Daniel Larison as well as its logical implications might best be summarized by John J. Reilly's blog from February 2006:
Defeat is editorial policy for American Conservative. Consider this piece, War of the Worlds, by William S. Lind, who argues that there are two great evils today, the Jihad of Fourth Generation warfare and the Brave New World of the West:

The Fourth Generation of Modern War, warfare since the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, is the greatest change in armed conflict since the modern era began. It is marked by the state’s loss of the monopoly on war it established with Westphalia and the rise of non-state elements that can fight states and win...Fourth Generation war is giving rise to new forms of social organization. It should not surprise us that al-Qaeda’s goal is not taking power within states but abolishing the state altogether and replacing it with an ummah...

The march toward Brave New World is led by the United States. The main characteristics of Huxley’s dystopia are all too evident in post-1960s America (and Europe). They include a culture where the summary of the law is “you must be happy,” happiness coming from a combination of materialism, consumerism, electronic entertainment, and sexual pleasure; globalism, the elites’ “one ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them” under de facto if not de jure world government; and endless psychological conditioning, especially through the government schools and the video-screen media. Religion is already relegated to the eccentric margins, at least among the elites, if not yet quite forbidden

Readers may amuse themselves by searching through Lind's writings to see how many times he has predicted, indeed reported, the defeat of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan during the past few years.

When Brave New World’s walls come a tumblin’ down—and they will—men of the West may have their opportunity. Bewildered, shocked, sometimes panicked societies will seek alternatives but not know where to turn.

They will, of course, turn to American Conservative's brand of tradition. It worked for Marshal Petain, didn't it?

There are confusions here. Yes, there is a Brave New World faction in the West, whose chief representatives are, perhaps, the transnationalists of the Davos type. It has little or nothing to do with the neocons. The Brave New Worlders have not prospered in recent years. Part of the story is the foundering of the European Union project; part of it is the defenestration of cultural and media elites in the US. The Brave New World is not fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, Brave New World not only could not fight a war; it could not survive in a world where war were possible.

I think that there is a lot to this that goes a long way towards understanding the worldview of Mark Shea. He correctly understands the role of religion to a viable culture and society, but he believes that the whole of American leadership is the preserve of godless secularism. At this point I think that he is so far gone that cannot hope for its victory (watch this to surface as a new theme once Iraq is no longer a factor one way or another), because to do so would only prolong the rot. In many ways, Mark is a kind of inverse to Dinesh D'Souza, the latter of whom at least understands enough about Western elites (being one of them) to recognize that there is a distinction to be made in discussing our national leadership. Mark will hear none of that however, for him the whole of any politically active social conservative leadership (which I would argue by definition includes both Neuhaus and Bottum, his denials notwithstanding) are no more than cynical tools for the GOP party machine to get the rubes to vote them into office. He also believes that the fact that Paul has not gained traction (unless he has, consistency is not one of Mark's strong points) is proof of his conspiracy of elites to Soviet-style rig the US election.

Then there is the matter of content. Mark, near as I can tell, appears to have very little in terms of news or information that is original to him. Instead, it seems that what he does is essentially a commentary of what he sees on Drudge, WorldNetDaily, Human Events, and of course the American Conservative. And rather bad commentary at that, given his utter refusal to engage in serious arguments with those he disagrees with on matters of public policy. For long time, he loudly denied being a paleocon (without exactly explaining where he parts ways with them except on illegal immigration, no trivial matter that) but now that he has begun more and more openly supporting Ron Paul, as Darth Vader says the circle is now complete. I wish him well in his embrace in the lunatic fringe of American politics, but I also don't feel nearly as obliged to engage in rapid reply to what he says now that he has descended into the kook fringe of American conservatism alongside Justin Raimondo. If he wants to continue through his fever swamp ideas about the United States planning a massive attack on Iran (with the Democrats complicit, no less) or revenge fantasies about putting Bush and Cheney on trial for war crimes, I am content to let him do so.

You'll notice I managed to say all of this without getting into the issue of interrogation. Mark labeling Victor and myself as "shills for Leviathan" aside, I would argue that by the same criteria he judges us he had best expand that list to include a great many people. Also, if the measure we use is the same that is used against us, I would suggest that his discussion of just who "shills" around Catholic blogosphere is perhaps best represented by his own 180 degree shift in rhetoric when it comes to libertarianism as soon as he pledged his fealty to Ron Paul.

Thursday, August 02, 2007

More signs of a complete disconnect with reality ...

Mark writes:
We initially went to war to destroy them and take out Osama bin Laden. However, that just war got put on the back burner so that we could pursue some other grand End to Evil strategy that had basically nothing to do with September 11 and our inital causus belli. The Taliban is therefore still around, as is Osama bin Laden, who is, we are assured, no longer relevant.

Short of a major and preemptive military invasion into Pakistan, both are likely to remain with us for at least the immediate. I would also urge conservatives not to pooh-pooh Obama's actual proposal on this too much since it may well come to that. However, anyone who has been even remotely following the discussion on Iraq would be aware that regardless of why Mark believes we went to war, we are actively fighting Osama's jackboots there as well. Allowing the enemy to regroup, whether in Pakistan or in Iraq, would be a Very Bad Thing.

Is it not possible to oppose both?

As I and others have noted before:
Yes, there is a Brave New World faction in the West, whose chief representatives are, perhaps, the transnationalists of the Davos type. It has little or nothing to do with the neocons. The Brave New Worlders have not prospered in recent years. Part of the story is the foundering of the European Union project; part of it is the defenestration of cultural and media elites in the US. The Brave New World is not fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, Brave New World not only could not fight a war; it could not survive in a world where war were possible.

Reilly earlier made his point this way:
As C. S. Lewis once remarked, there is wishful thinking even in Hell, so we need not take seriously Mullah Kreikar's analogy of Iraq to Soviet Afghanistan. Most Iraqis have a vested interest in the Coalition remaining for a year or two. The parts of the country that lend themselves to guerrilla activity are not the areas where the population is likely to be hostile. There is little prospect of a technological fix for the insurgents, as US Stinger missiles were against Soviet helicopters. The list of differences could be lengthened. However, the outcome of the war in Iraq, as of the Terror War in toto, depends on a similarity: whether the people see the future being offered them as desirable, or at least tolerable.

American confidence on this score is so great that it is rarely even questioned. Consider this assessment by Philip Zelikow, made on the Jim Lehrer News Hour on August 8:

But on the plus side, since we are all being very downbeat about this, let's just notice that in late 1940s, we were competing against a major ideology that had taken power in much of Eurasia, was about to seize power in all of China and had enormous appeal in large parts of the world. Here we are in a struggle of ideas against the foe who says their goal is to recreate a caliphate through blood and fire. If that's the battle of ideas, I think that we are in a good position to win that.

To this I would say that, if the contest is between the Caliphate and the Federalist Papers, we have little to worry about. On the other hand, if the contest is between the Caliphate and The Sopranos or Sex in the City, I am not at all sure that the Caliphate may not have the greater appeal. The problem is not simply anti-moral popular culture, but the collapse in elite morale that made the popular culture possible. The clothes, music, architecture, even the religions of Western countries can be exported on their merits. However, a political culture that embraces the reasoning of Lawrence v. Texas cannot be exported except at bayonet point.

One the points that Mark continues to remain ignorant of is that with the exception of individual cases like Christopher Hitchens or Glenn Reynolds, the people who are pioneering these transhumanist concepts tend to be the ones least interested in fighting the war on terrorism.

Behold the power of Michael Ledeen!

This is Mark, agreeing with my argument that it is not so much Ledeen as what he represents:
It is precisely "what Ledeen represents" that I am criticizing ... It is of *far* greater consequence to you that I am impolite to Ledeen and his repellent moral reasoning than that his repellent moral reasoning underlies all the excuse-making that has been made for the Bush Administration's policies of prisoner abuse, torture and murder.

I assume that he is talking about consequentalism rather than anything that Ledeen has, you know, actually written on the subject. As has been noted, Mark appears willing to accept consequentalist arguments against the use of torture, such as the one that we should not do it because it is not effective. However, that still doesn't explain Mark's level animosity towards Ledeen given that he isn't the only conservative advocate of consequentalism, nor is he by far its loudest voice when it comes to the issue of torture. My short explanation for this would be that because Mark believes that Ledeen advocates the killing of prisoners, he considers no charge or invective against the man to be too severe. At this point, Ledeen to Mark is less of a person with a set of actual positions then he is an abstract representation of why Mark, really really hates neoconservatism and the Bush administration.

This is sort of like his labeling of Gonzalez as "corrupt" because of the Torture Memos. I think that there is more than sufficient grounds to criticize Gonzalez or Ledeen, but Mark because dislikes both of them (in the case of Gonzalez he has openly stated that this is for reasons quite different from why he is currently in hot water), no claim is too outrageous or unwarranted. That is every bit as consequentialist as the arguments that he purports to be criticizing, which is both deliciously ironic and extremely hypocritical. I would even go as far as saying that Mark has basically embraced a utilitarian mindset when it comes to Gonzalez or Ledeen in which he will accept anything (within reason) to try and undermine them because they are both Bad People.

Also, while I think that Paul's comment was unwarranted (a point he himself made), this stream of dialogue looks like more of the behavior of a jilted ex than a Catholic apologist:
But Mark, why can't we have a civilized conversation about how you are a stupid judgemental liar?
Zippy | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 5:05 pm | #

Zippy:

You forgot "mean". Chris and the Girls at the Coalition Sewing Circle are very concerned about meanness. It's so important not to be mean to people who advocate murder. If not for my meanness and the horrible witness I offer as a so-called Catholic apologist, Ledeen might be a saint today. Mean People like me stand between him and his struggle for sanctity. The girls at the Coalition, by gossiping for Christ, are making a mystical contribution to the holiness of the world and helping guys like Ledeen find the love of God by affirming him in his well-meaning attempts to strengthen the common good through war crimes. If I knew the first things about *real* Catholic faith and love I would know this and stop picking the poor man apart just because he advocates cold blooded murder and tries to pass it off as "thinking more deeply". When you are a heartless lying bastard like me, you constantly are trying to take the speck of murder out of other people's eyes while not attending to the log of impoliteness in your own.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 5:17 pm | #

Yes, Mark, you are right about my omission and I don't condone my omission, but lets stay on-topic here. Just what is it that makes you such a stupid mean judgemental liar?
Zippy | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 5:36 pm | #

Many things, really, Zippy. I mean it's so hard to choose. For one things, there's my complete allergy to even minimal truthfulness. I lie about absolutely everything, just for fun. There's hardly anything I like more than leading people astray, even when it comes to trivial facts. In fact, I'm lying right now.

This is, of course, related to my staggering ignorance. I don't know a damn thing and I don't want to know. Facts are hard and complicated and I think we're better off without them.

Then again, there's my neurotic terror of all disagreement. The mildest difference of opinion fills me with a tyrannous need for approval and a violent urge to shout down the smallest independent thought. My readers live in continual fear of me and only the bravest have ever dared to disagree with me.

Coupled with this is my demented hatred of everything about America and, in particular, George W Bush and my total and complete inability to see anything wrong with any aspect of the Church whatsoever.

Gosh. I'm evil for so many reasons. I'm sure there are more, but being the completely unreflective guy I am, I can't think of any at present. Just remember "Mark is evil" and you will prett much have the gist of it.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 5:54 pm | #

Apparently, according to Christopher's brother in Christian dialogue Paul Zummo, not only is all of that true but you are also a sodomite. Though he's too mature to just say so.

Oh the things one can discover by reading the Learned Letters of the Consequentialist Brain Trust.
Zippy | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 6:15 pm | #

It would appear (though I could be wrong) that Paul has just indulged himself in the greatest sin known to the mind of Chris: sarcasm.

I eagerly anticipate the moment when the Girls of the Coalition (led by Chris) condemn Paul's horrifying crime.

Suggestions for fruitful civilized dialogue, Coalition Girls: Be sure and remind Paul what the *original* meaning of "sodomy" is. Then clarify that since neither Zippy nor I are, in fact, homosexual this is nothing other than a shocking calumny. If Paul gives you some song and dance about "using language" and not being literal you be sure and set him straight that words mean exactly one thing and one thing only and there is no such thing as allusion, pun, referential speech or "humor".

Okay Coalition girls, synchronize your menstrual cycles and get clucking. Paul needs to be set straight!
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 6:39 pm | #

It's useful to note that Mark deleted my ever damaging comment, yaaaawn. Clearly such language cannot be tolerated.

All right, let's get serious. Not that this post will last for longer than the time it takes for Mark to look at the comment's author.

This blog was once a very useful resource, one of the most enjoyable blogs to read in the blogosphere. Over time, the unrelenting contempt for viewpoints that disagreed with mark's own became too much to take. So I just stopped reading (and the blog post that put me over the top wasn't even related to politics, but rather an incredibly cynical blogpost about worship styles, one in which I agreed with Mark's basic opinion, but couldn't take the way Mark just dismissed those that held contrary opinions.)

It's not the sarcasm, Mark. Sarcasm is the essential tone of the blogosphere. In fact, sarcasm is probably one of my favorite things about the blogosphere. Come on, I'm from New York, what New Yorker is going to hate sarcasm.

No, the problem is the contempt - absolute snivelling contempt you show to people that have different opinions. It's like you don't even read what people are writing. This thread is the perfect example. No one's really defending Ledeen here, and yet we're all just "consequentialists" because we happen to disagree with the way you've framed Ledeen's writing. There's no attempt whatsoever to even address the arguments other than through a wave of the hand. Throw some ad hominem, sprinkle off a few tired cliches, and just dismiss others. Lovely. Surely a Christian way of blogging.

And no, my comment on CFF was NOT a Christian thing to write. That's why I stay away from this blog and others like it. Quite frankly it brings out the worst in me. I think you bring out the worst in a lot of people, Mark.
paul zummo | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 6:55 pm | #

Paul: N.B., I'm not a sock puppet. I'm an unshaven clown. YOW! ARE WE HAVING FUN YET!?!?!?!
Zippy | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 6:59 pm | #

Paul, my good woman:

I love that you carefully track the discussion, urge the Coalition ladies to pay close attention, and then come over here to feign boredom--twice!. And that bit about "Yes. It *was* unchristian of me, and that's *your* fault!" That's just great. You ladies at the Sewing Circle stay beautiful. 'Kay?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 7:10 pm | #

Psssst. Donald. Mark's tone has always been one of satirical hectoring and abuse. That is part of what has made CAEI what it is. Just ask the gay brownshirts, stem cell cannibals, those in favor of offing useless eaters, the lidless eye, virginity-and-children-despisers, and the evil party. Among others.

What has changed is that when torture went on the list of things being satirized - and the irony of this is really quite beyond words - the exquisite sensitivities of a few CAEI regulars to the idea that torturing prisoners isn't acceptable were violated, and Fun Mark suddenly became Nasty Mark in their eyes.

Oddly, it wasn't even Mark's condemnation of the unjust war in Iraq or the annual Hiroshima/Nagasaki dissent party that sent Victor the Impaler of Anti-Concepts and his passive-aggressive pal Fair and Balanced Christopher off in a huff. It was torture. Sure it is OK for Mark to criticize torture in the abstract, but his usual writing style is just unacceptable on that particular subject.

That is pretty interesting.

So now of course he's Nasty Mark on all the favorite Republican issues he's criticized. But it isn't the spoon that bends: it is you that bends.
Zippy | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 7:46 pm | #

There is no spoon.

There! Somebody had to say it!
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 7:50 pm | #

Oddly, it wasn't even Mark's condemnation of the unjust war in Iraq or the annual Hiroshima/Nagasaki dissent party that sent Victor the Impaler of Anti-Concepts and his passive-aggressive pal Fair and Balanced Christopher off in a huff. It was torture. Sure it is OK for Mark to criticize torture in the abstract, but his usual writing style is just unacceptable on that particular subject.

Sigh. This is an act of complete futility, but I just want to make something clear before I depart. Mark's comments on torture didn't send me off in a huff. I stuck around quote a while during that whole escapade. Frankly, I didn't necessarily disagree with what Mark said, but the way he completely dismissed contrary opinions. What was especially frustrating was the way Mark got all huffy when people would ask, "What exactly is torture?" Mark snottilly dismissed those who asked the question - but guess what, some of us actually want to know. I am not as invested in the debate, nor do I know as much of the history and theology of the issue, as either Mark, you, Victor, Donald, etc. I actually wanted to find some answers, but that was impossible to find here.

But I stuck around because Mark was still good on the Catholic theological issues. Heck, he's the guy I wrote e-mails to searching for advice, even after this debate raged (I think). But then there was a blog post, and i can't remember what it was about specifically, but it had something to do with liturgical matters. And mark's tone - even though I didn't disagree with the underlying assertion - so peeved me that I vowed to stop reading. And, by and large, though with exceptions, that's what I did. It had nothing to do with torture, it had to do with religious issues, and not on something I disagreed with Mark about. It made me realize just how arrogantly Mark acted and how contemptuous he was of people that finally made me realize to vamoos.

And so I do.
paul zummo | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 8:15 pm | #

And mark's tone - even though I didn't disagree with the underlying assertion - so peeved me that I vowed to stop reading.

And here you are: still not reading. And very, very carefully to boot. With all the Ladies in the Coalition Sewing Circle that Has Nothing to Do with Making Excuses for Consequentialism or Anything. And yawning. Twice. Because you're not obsessed with me or anything.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.02.07 - 8:46 pm | #

"And here you are: still not reading."

Except that paul made it abundantly clear that he has not observed his abstinence with perfect fidelity: "And, by and large, though with exceptions, that's what I did."
Mark Adams | 08.02.07 - 9:21 pm | #

As someone noted earlier in the thread, we were called upon to be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves, not the other way around.

Also, since Zippy appears to lack basic reading comprehension on our positions, let me resolve this difficulty for him:
Psssst. Donald. Mark's tone has always been one of satirical hectoring and abuse. That is part of what has made CAEI what it is. Just ask the gay brownshirts, stem cell cannibals, those in favor of offing useless eaters, the lidless eye, virginity-and-children-despisers, and the evil party. Among others.

What has changed is that when torture went on the list of things being satirized - and the irony of this is really quite beyond words - the exquisite sensitivities of a few CAEI regulars to the idea that torturing prisoners isn't acceptable were violated, and Fun Mark suddenly became Nasty Mark in their eyes.

Oddly, it wasn't even Mark's condemnation of the unjust war in Iraq or the annual Hiroshima/Nagasaki dissent party that sent Victor the Impaler of Anti-Concepts and his passive-aggressive pal Fair and Balanced Christopher off in a huff. It was torture. Sure it is OK for Mark to criticize torture in the abstract, but his usual writing style is just unacceptable on that particular subject.

First of all, I think that Mark's blog has deteriorated considerably over the last several years regarding his use of satire, straw man arguments, and invocations of righteous outrage. As a practical matter, I don't think that someone like Blackadder (whose only crime was what, exactly?) would have been asked to leave CAEI given some of the stuff that Marv Wood, I'm Not Spartacus, and Morning 's Minion have posted there on occasion. Secondly, a number of us did object to Mark's use of terms like "gay brownshirts" on the simple fact that it was too polemical.

As general rule, once upon a time (and I still think he can do this so long as the issue does not touch on contemporary politics) Mark was willing to leave behind his caricatures when actually discussing these issues. He has in the past for instance been quite willing to move beyond polemic engage in serious dialogue on issues like homosexuality, the culture of promiscuity, traditionalism, stem cells, and the Democratic Party. This was generally a good thing in my view because it illustrated that he understood the distinction between polemic and argument. Even on the Iraq war, he was bound by the issue of prudential judgement to refrain from declaring himself correct in the sense of representing the sole acceptable position of the Church.

When it came to torture and soon spread to all other issues dealing with the Bush administration, however, in my view Mark is completely unable to distinguish between polemic and argument. Oh, and he is willing to embrace all manner of insane conspiracy theories in order to support his arguments. I think that there is ample documentation of this here, given his complete and utter refusal to have any substantive dialogue with his critics that do not include his issuing of anathema sits. When combined with his constant and persistent ad hominem attacks against those who dare to disagree with him while refusing to engage the fact that others like Father Neuhaus and Jimmy Akin (who remain in good company as far as Mark is concerned), then maybe just maybe one can understand why we have such a problem with it. Zippy, for whom there is no argument in which he cannot simply declare himself correct, appears to have trouble understanding this.

Wednesday, August 01, 2007

For those who wish to continue tracking Chris's attempt to dialogue with Mark ...

I would refer you to the comments of the earlier entry. I think that the short form as to why Mark behaves as he does when it comes to Ledeen is that Mark has defined the man in his own mind as a representative of all that is evil when it comes to neoconservatives. The fact that he is now bringing Strauss into this is a clear indication to me as to just how far gone he is.

Also, this exchange in relation to this post is very interesting:
Corrupt? Do we have any evidence that he takes bribes or something similar? Or has "corrupt" lost any meaningful content other than as a fancy-sounding synonym for "really bad"?
Seamus | 08.01.07 - 10:04 am | #

Ditto. The firing of prosecutors was clumsy, but not illegal.
Peggy | Homepage | 08.01.07 - 10:11 am | #

Nor is there evidense that he lied. This if from July 29th PowerLine:

Today the Times confirms that Gonzales told the truth. The legal dispute that broke out in 2004 was about the NSA's "data mining" project, in which databases of telephone records were reviewed for patterns suggestive of terrorist cells:

A 2004 dispute over the National Security Agency’s secret surveillance program that led top Justice Department officials to threaten resignation involved computer searches through massive electronic databases, according to current and former officials briefed on the program.
It is not known precisely why searching the databases, or data mining, raised such a furious legal debate. But such databases contain records of the phone calls and e-mail messages of millions of Americans, and their examination by the government would raise privacy issues.


What's comical about the Times' reporting is that the paper can't bring itself to acknowledge that this means Gonzales has been vindicated:

If the dispute chiefly involved data mining, rather than eavesdropping, Mr. Gonzales’ defenders may maintain that his narrowly crafted answers, while legalistic, were technically correct.
First, this paragraph of "analysis" is contradicted by the reporting contained in the same article, which doesn't say that the dispute was "chiefly" about data mining. It says it was about data mining, period. Further, there is nothing "narrowly crafted," "legalistic" or "technically correct" about Gonzales's testimony. It was truthful and fully accurate. He said that the legal controversy did not involve the program that was confirmed by President Bush, in which international communications where one party was associated with al Qaeda were intercepted. That is exactly what the Times reported today. The controversy involved a completely different program, which has been rumored but which the administration has never publicly confirmed. Yet the Times cannot bring itself to admit that Gonzales has been vindicated, and the Senators who called for a perjury investigation have been made to look foolish.
John J. Simmins | 08.01.07 - 10:35 am | #

"Corrupt" as in "making the AG office a rubber stamp for enabling war crimes instead of doing what it's supposed to do" (just for starters).

Remember the Torture Memos? That's what soured me on Gonzales.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.01.07 - 11:01 am | #

Remember the Torture Memos? That's what soured me on Gonzales.

So "corrupt" actually *is* just a synonym for "really, really bad."
Seamus | 08.01.07 - 11:11 am | #

Dictionary definitions aside, as Mark likes to remind us in relation to Ledeen, words have meaning. If you accuse a politician of being corrupt, people read that as covering a fairly specific criteria of activity, just as if he had accused Gonzalez of being a deviant. But it turns out that the reason Gonzalez is corrupt is because he just happens to be a bad person on the issue of torture. So because he is a bad person, all other charges against him must be true and all manner of invective may be hurled against him.

I find it very odd that someone so adamantly opposed to consequentialism appears to practice it on such a regular basis.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007

Serious Question

A reader noted the following in response to my query of why Mark has such a vendetta against NRO:
Mark's been sore at NR for a few years. I recall him once explaining that he felt they stiffed him for a column.

I honestly don't remember this. Does anyone else? Mark's behavior towards the publication appears to me to be an incredibly childish display of loathing and resentment. I've just never understood why NRO given that he doesn't hold the same degree of animus towards other conservative publications. Does anyone know the full story here?

Shorter Mark ...

"I'm allowed to misrepresent Michael Ledeen whenever I like because he really is an evil person!"

I'm continuing to follow this with unvarnished amusement:
"Creative destruction" is an economic term. It refers to the fact that revolutions in technology or innovations in the economy often lead to the destruction of older businesses. The company that manufactures buggies goes out of business with the advent of cars, etc.

Creative Destruction

Ledeen has used the term a couple of times in his columns and in his book The War Against the Terror Masters. In each case that I've seen, it's clear from the context that he is using the term in its ordinary economic sense. However, a number of people, apparently not being familiar with the term or its economic meaning, have taken it to refer to dropping bombs on people. This is a mistake, though perhaps an understandable one.
Blackadder | 07.31.07 - 10:48 am | #

Blackadder,

Kindly take your explanations back to the Coalition for Fog where they belong. The truth is that Michael Ledeen is a modern Nazi with Muslims instead of Jews as his target and nothing you can say can change that. Your defense of him is like putting a doily on a dung-pile.
Anonymous | 07.31.07 - 11:52 am | #

Blackadder:

K says you, the Coalition for Fog and the defenses of Michael Ledeen at the Ratzinger Fan Club don't exist. So apparently you don't. Michael Ledeen is just the crazy uncle in the closet who, admittedly, cheerleads for war crimes now and then. But hey! It's all in good fun and nobody takes his little eccentricities seriously because of all the other good work he does. Only a fool would see some connection between dangerous nonsense like "creative destruction" (enunciated, blackadder, in a column aimed at tub-thumping for war, not at a lecture on economics) and dangerous nonsense like "let us do evil that good may come of it."
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 12:03 pm | #

I think Blackadder has reasonably demonstrated that however much Mark or any of us believe we adequately understood what Ledeen was saying in his "Creative Destruction" column, we did not understand nearly enough to come to any conclusion one way or another.

The fact that hardly anyone had apparently heard of "Creative Destruction" as an economic term, but chalked the term up as something being coined by Ledeen to promote the War in Iraq or whatever, is objective proof that the column and his use of the term were completely misunderstood. (Understandably misunderstood even...)
Chris-2-4 | 07.31.07 - 12:28 pm | #

K says you, the Coalition for Fog and the defenses of Michael Ledeen at the Ratzinger Fan Club don't exist.

Mark, remember what I said about combox idiots? Besides, I don't know if Blackadder is actually defending Ledeen, as much as he's saying that "Creative Destruction" doesn't mean what you (and I) think it means.

It's particularly telling that you make vague references to the Coalition for Fog and the Ratzinger Fan Club without, you know, actually linking anything.

And you still have yet to explain how glorifying continuous revolution is in any way conservative.

Again, all you have to support your assertion that conservatives agree with Ledeen that frequent revolution and war benefits civilization is that National Review hasn't run Ledeen out of town on a rail.

The fact that hardly anyone had apparently heard of "Creative Destruction" as an economic term, but chalked the term up as something being coined by Ledeen to promote the War in Iraq or whatever, is objective proof that the column and his use of the term were completely misunderstood.

I think that's fair. I never actually read Ledeen's column. Has anybody? I mean, seriously, I can't find any reputable bloggers who have even mentioned this "Creative Destruction" business and endorsed it. I relied solely on Mark's representation about the contents of the column and what Ledeen meant by the phrase.

I now see that I'm probably ignorant as to what the phrase meant. But at least I'm not as self-assured as Mark, who's convinced that "Creative Destruction" means "the ends justify the means in Iraq."
K the C | 07.31.07 - 1:22 pm | #

But at least I'm not as self-assured as Mark, who's convinced that "Creative Destruction" means "the ends justify the means in Iraq."

Okay, that part probably wasn't fair. Mark wouldn't intentionally misrepresent anyone's statements, and if he says that Ledeen used "Creative Destruction" in the context of advocating the waging of savage war, I'll assume that he's reporting the gist of Ledeen's column correctly until I hear otherwise.

Nevertheless, Mark still has yet to show that a single prominent conservative columnist or blogger agrees with Ledeen's fundamentally anticonservative view of history.

Oh, I'm sure Mark can come up with conservatives who advocate torture or total war, as Ledeen does. But he can't come up with any conservatives who share Ledeen's leftist view of history.
K the C | 07.31.07 - 1:30 pm | #

Here is a passage from Ledeen's The War Against the Terror Masters:

"Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our own society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity, which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. Seeing America undo traditional societies, they fear us, for they do not wish to be undone. They cannot feel secure so long as we are there, for our very existence—our existence, not our politics—threatens their legitimacy."

I take it to be obvious that in this passage Ledeen is using "creative destruction" in its ordinary sense, and is not talking about military force or violence.

Here is Ledeen in his September 20, 2001 column:

"we should have no misgivings about our ability to destroy tyrannies. It is what we do best. It comes naturally to us, for we are the one truly revolutionary country in the world, as we have been for more than 200 years. Creative destruction is our middle name. We do it automatically, and that is precisely why the tyrants hate us, and are driven to attack us."

Given the similar phrasing ("creative destruction is our middle name," etc.) it is utterly implausible to suppose that Ledeen used "creative destruction" in different sense in the two different passages. And, since the term will not bear a military sense in the first passage, it cannot bear that sense in the second passage either.

Once one realizes what Ledeen means by "creative destruction," the whole column takes on a somewhat different tone. Ledeen says, for example, that " it is time once again to export the democratic revolution." His model for how to do this, however, is "the 1980s, when we led a global democratic revolution that toppled tyrants from Moscow to Johannesburg." That democratic revolution was accomplished not through war, but through the promotion of democratic resistance movements both morally and financially. And, in fact, Ledeen's main recommendation in the column is that President Bush "should direct Secretary Powell to fully support democratic resistance movements in the terrorist countries, and, failing that, to support more moderate, more pro-Western forces." Ledeen's vision is one in which "[f]reedom is our most lethal weapon, and the oppressed peoples of the fanatic regimes are our greatest assets. They need to hear and see that we are with them, and that the Western mission is to set them free, under leaders who will respect them and preserve their freedom." And so forth.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ co...een092001.shtml
Blackadder | 07.31.07 - 1:39 pm | #

K:

Against the Grain and the Coalition for Fog do not exist in comboxes. They are blogs. It's up to you decide whether their defences of Ledeen are idiotic or not. I don't link them because I presume you have Google and can take care of that yourself. There you will find several strenuous defences of Ledeen's crazy ideas. And, of course, there's always Blackadder who is ready willing and able to both spin "creative destruction" into something Just Swell as well as conveniently overlook Ledeen's suggestions that we commit war crimes in the Service of the Greater Good.

"Creative Destruction" is a rather apt expression for *all* consequentialist thinking. That's why I make use of it.

I'll leave you and blackadder to argue about whether Everybody Agrees it's All Crap or Everybody Agrees it Makes Great Sense But Doesn't Mean Anything Bad Or Anything. The important thing is, I'm Mean for mocking consequentialism.

There really are days when I wonder why I bother with comboxes at all.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 3:04 pm | #

"Creative Destruction" =

Free speech versus pc speech codes or blasphemy laws

Freedom to practice any religion — or none

Romantic marriages versus arranged marriages

Freedom to chose one's own profession or vocation, regardless of family background

Market economies instead of command economies

Talent and merit favored over heritage

Encouraging scientific inquiry even when its results seem in opposition to religious dogma or tradition

Being willing to put up with the dislocation such a dynamic system creates vis a vis more traditional systems, for the sake of progress.

Count me in.
Rick | 07.31.07 - 3:09 pm | #

I wonder if it's only a coincidence that Michael Ledeen in 2003 responded to Ron Paul's attacks on him -- involving in part the meaning of the term "creative destruction"?

Here's Ron Paul:



In Ledeen's most recent publication, The War Against the Terror Masters, he reiterates his beliefs outlined in this 1999 Machaivelli book. He specifically praises: "Creative destruction…both within our own society and abroad…(foreigners) seeing America undo traditional societies may fear us, for they do not wish to be undone." Amazingly, Ledeen concludes: "They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission."

If those words don't scare you, nothing will?

Here's Ledeen:

He conveniently leaves out the context, which is a discussion of the basic conflict between us and the terror masters: a conflict between freedom and tyranny. I argue, as I argued during the Cold War with regard to Communism, and as I argued in my books on fascism earlier, that the conflict between America and tyrants is inevitable. It stems from the very nature of America, from our unique freedom and creativity, which has often been described as "creative destruction." Every serious writer about America has noticed the amazing speed with which we scrap old ideas, technologies, art forms and even the use of the English language. And it's obvious that more rigid societies, particularly those governed by tyrants, are frightened by the effects and the appeal of freedom on their own subjects. Our existence threatens them, undermines their legitimacy, and subverts their power. Therefore "they must attack us in order to survive," and, sooner or later, we must confront them and, I hope and trust, defeat them in order to advance our mission of spreading freedom.

Request to Mark: -- instead of casting aspersions on the "Ratzinger Fan Club" (the 300+ forum members hold varying opinions on the matter of the Iraq war), kindly note that the opinions expressed on my blog do not necessarily reflect those held by other members of the 'Ratzinger Fan Club' website, only myself.

And to the extent that I've "defended" Ledeen, it is only to the extent that I believe he was misinterpreted and/or deliberately misrepresented. (Please note the link and judge for yourself whether they are "strenuous defenses of Ledeen's crazy ideas.")

Curiusly, on the matter of torture, Ledeen's own views are hardly distinguishable from other critics of the Bush Administration that Mark supports. Curiously, despite the influential weight Mark has given to Ledeen's other columns, this one is often dismissed:

[Ledeen circa 2004]: First, the matter of the "abuses" of the prisoners. Maybe the temperature of the rhetoric has cooled enough for us to address the most important aspect of the debacle: Torture and abuse are not only wrong and disgusting. They are stupid and counterproductive. A person under torture will provide whatever statements he believes will end the pain. Therefore, the "information" he provides is fundamentally unreliable. He is not responding to questions; 99 percent of the time, he's just trying to figure out what he has to say in order to end his suffering. All those who approved these methods should be fired, above all because they are incompetent to collect intelligence.

Torture, and the belief in its efficacy, are the way our enemies think. And remember that our enemies, the tyrants of the 20th century, and the jihadis we are fighting now, are the representatives of failed cultures. Our greatness derives from the superiority of our culture, and we should, as the sports metaphor goes, stick with what got us here.
Christopher | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 3:14 pm | #

"like one of those guys on the bus talking to himself"

That needs to be CAEI's new motto!!!

Having met Mark, let me say I am certain it would be entertaining to ride that bus as he delivers a rant straight from the script of that Mel Gibson movie about conspiracy theories.

I'd buy a monthly bus pass for that.

On the train out of my neighborhood, we only have an elderly man who recites MLK speeches at the top of his lungs, with all the appropriate flourish. It was great in the evening, but it was unbearable before my first espresso.
Franklin Jennings | 07.31.07 - 3:27 pm | #

"Creative Destruction" is a rather apt expression for *all* consequentialist thinking. That's why I make use of it.

So, basically, you don't care what the term has meant historically to those who've used it or what Ledeen was thinking of when he used it. It just SOUNDS ominous and so it must be.

Typical.
Chris-2-4 | 07.31.07 - 3:52 pm | #

Chris:

It was K who called you a combox idiot, not me.

Yes, I'm familiar with Ledeen's skill in the Straussian art of doubletalk and the weird theories about saying one thing for public consumption while saying the opposite in subtext. He's really good at it. That's why I broke down his plea for shooting the wounded in my analysis of his doubletalk in "Toying with Evil". He's also insisted that he "opposed the military invasion of Iraq before it took place". This, despite his article in National Review in August 2002 where he urged "the desperately-needed and long overdue war against Saddam Hussein". So no, I'm not much impressed with the efforts of Against the Grain and the Coalition for Fog to show that this untrustworthy man is a moral compass for our time and a fine advocate of conservative values. However, I do thank you for laboring so hard to demonstrate the K doesn't know what he's talking about here and that Ledeen has, indeed, numerous staunch defenders.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 3:55 pm | #

Chris-2-4:

No. I'm saying that Ledeen's documentable consequentialist claptrap in urging us to "enter into evil" and "do things we know to be wrong" is nicely summarized by a phrase Ledeen like to utter. This is called "using language". When people use language, they sometimes turn the meaning of a phrase that means something in one context to mean something else in another context. Sometimes this is fitting and sometimes not. If Ledeen had never advocated consequentialist arguments, it would be unjust to turn his phrase into a claim that he did. But since he *does* advocate consequentialist ideas, it is perfectly appropriate to use his phrase to mock those ideas.

You could, of course, figure that out on your own, if you were actually interested in doing something besides making excuses for consequentialists like Ledeen. But as your long history here makes clear, that's not the case, is it?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 4:02 pm | #

I'm not much impressed with the efforts of Against the Grain and the Coalition for Fog to show that this untrustworthy man is a moral compass for our time and a fine advocate of conservative values.

I'm not familiar with Ledeen's work beyond the the context of CAEI and the 'Coalition for Fog's critiques of the man.

I do not regard him as 'the moral compass of our time'. However, I agree with self-styled "Coalition for Fog" that he was unjustly misrepresented -- and it wasn't only the 'Coalition for Fog' that protested your treatment, but a few soundly orthodox members of St. Blog's parish as well, as I recall.

Once more, I will simply refer readers to the post on Against The Grain and let them judge for themselves the intent of my defense.
Christopher | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 4:16 pm | #

As I said before, I'm against the war in Iraq. But the argument, both pro and con, seems to be dominated by the straw-man assembly line crew. You take your opponent's words, skew the context and substance of what he says, and voila! you just won the argument.

Mark, it's interesting that you say "If Ledeen had never advocated consequentialist arguments, it would be unjust to turn his phrase into a claim that he did. But since he *does* advocate consequentialist ideas, it is perfectly appropriate to use his phrase to mock those ideas."

So... the ends (that Ledeen is wrong) justifies the means (taking him out of context) when it comes to rhetoric.

Okay, man. I mean, the only casualty is truth, not a human life. But it still bugs me, especially when it comes from a Catholic apologist.
John | 07.31.07 - 4:17 pm | #

Mark,

"Creative destruction" isn't Ledeen's phrase. He didn't come up with it. It is an economic term dating from the 1940s that has nothing to do with consequentialism or doing evil that good may result. My pointing this out isn't "spinning" any more than it would be spinning to correct someone who claimed Catholics worship Mary because they pray to her or that because they think the Pope is infallible they must believe that he is never wrong.
Blackadder | 07.31.07 - 4:59 pm | #

Oh, come on, John (and the rest of you). A phrase (say, "Where's the beef") is used in a particular context (say, a Wendy's commercial). Somebody then pick up the phrase and plays with it (say, to ridicule the empty rhetoric of Gary Hart in the 1988 campaign). Does anybody take it seriously to claim "That is a complete distortion of the original meaning of "Where's the Beef?"!

Hillary tells us "It takes a village to raise a child" (based on some African proverb). Countless right wing pundits seize on "It takes a village" to mean "This is code for Nanny State conniving." Do you get your undies in a bunch that the proverb is not originally intended to justify Hillary's schemes for vastly expanding the power of the State?

Now (work with me here) Ledeen, in a column carefully and deliberately written to suggest that shooting the wounded, entering into evil, and doing things we know are wrong should be entertained by serious adult thinkers makes it clear that he is a consequentialist. He also is famous for his use of the phrase "creative destruction". But it is a crime against humanity to couple those words with his eager advocacy of consequentialism.

There's so much tenderness for consequentialists in my comboxes. So much hypersensitivity toward treating them like all the rest of American political discourse treats other political types. It's really touching. I had no idea that these people who are so eager to enter into evil were so fragile when their rhetoric was discussed without euphemism and doubletalk.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.07 - 5:07 pm | #

You could, of course, figure that out on your own, if you were actually interested in doing something besides making excuses for consequentialists like Ledeen. But as your long history here makes clear, that's not the case, is it?

Mark:

Since you apparently aren't interested in what I think, but only in accusing me of something you prefer to believe I think, then I don't see any particular reason why you need to read what I say at all. Your mind is already made up. Why confuse you with my actual views when you are so certain about what they are?
Chris-2-4 | 07.31.07 - 5:19 pm | #

Mark:

If you had been interested in learning what I thought instead of just thinking you already know, you would be interested to discover that I was as horrified as you when I read the Creative Destruction piece by Ledeen originally. Now that I am confronted with information which sheds possible new light on the article, I realize that there may be well more to it than I thought and so I am not so sure I understand what he was saying. Your response on the other hand reminds me amazingly of this hypothetical by the brilliant C.S. Lewis.

Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad ass it was made out. Is one's first feeling, `Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally, we shall insist on seeing everything - God and our friends and ourselves included - as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.

Seeing grey and white as black is what you SEEM to be on the way to. I’m not saying you’re there, but there is the danger.
Chris-2-4 | 07.31.07 - 5:28 pm | #

Deliberate misrepresentation of an opponent isn't discussion "without euphemism and doubletalk." It's the very definition of euphemism and doubletalk.

What you're saying is that if you think someone is wrong, you shouldn't hesitate to exaggerate their position or put words into their mouth if it serves the purpose of making them look evil or ridiculous.

I dunno, but I think that if you are going to seriously discuss Catholic teaching with people, you can't stoop to playing the part of a Catholic Ted Rall or Ann Coulter. Are you an apologist or a pundit?

Anyhow. It's just something that's been galling me about your site for some time now, and I just felt that this particular post was the straw the broke the camel's back, so to speak.

I know, I know. I can stop reading and not come back. But do we really need another generation of Catholics who don't know how to argue, but only how to quarrel?

I have no tender feelings for Ledeen or any others who voice opinions such as his. I do, however, feel that the death-knell of rationality is being sounded when you engage in hysterics such as most of your recent political commentary. It's just so... amateur sounding, like a column in a college newspaper. I guess I should stay off the site and stick to the more mature argument to be found elsewhere.

See you.
John | 07.31.07 - 5:30 pm | #

The difference between "it takes a village" and "creative destruction" is that when Hillary said the bit about it taking a village, that really was code for Nanny Statism, whereas when Michael Ledeen used the phrase "creative destruction" he wasn't using it as code for gleefully killing people. If it had been code, or if Ledeen had used the term as a euphemism for war and violence, then Mark's complaint would be justified. But the context of those quotes makes clear that they will not bear the interpretation Mark has given them.
Blackadder | 07.31.07 - 5:30 pm | #

Some of these are no longer present in the combox, though I would be very interested to hear why that is from the horse's mouth. Their primary failing, near as I can determine, is that they made Mark look bad. There are also a number of odd claims that Mark brings up, but one of the things that I think is most interesting is that he frequently cites his argument that Ledeen favors killing the wounded in order to support his other behavior against the man. If that isn't the same kind of consequentialism he condemns, I'm honestly not certain what is.

This is too funny to pass up ...

Inspired by an e-mail from a good and dear friend, this simply must be archived for posterity:
I'm going to have to brush up on my understanding of the phrase "Creative Destruction for the Greater Good." I thought it was when the good guys lost sight of what was important, even though their end was a justifiable end, and therefore ended up doing or advocating nasty things as a result. It appears just to be anytime anyone does what is wrong on their way to their particular goal, be that goal a good or evil goal.
Dave G. | 07.30.07 - 2:56 pm | #

So... you are now subscribing to the notion (advanced in the NOR) that US soldiers in Iraq are guilty of murder?

Or are you now going to do your patented shuffle off stage to the tune of "Hey, I'm not sayin' that--how could you possibly insinuate that I think that? I mean, c'mon, folks!"

Using a saint to advance an agenda... nice. Easier than rational argument, I guess.
John | 07.30.07 - 3:33 pm | #

So... you are now subscribing to the notion (advanced in the NOR) that US soldiers in Iraq are guilty of murder?

No. I'm now subscribing to the notion that when a sophist like Michael Ledeen urges us to "enter into evil" and "do things we know to be wrong" in order to achieve some good end, we should run from him just as Jagerstatter ran from the people who said, "Hey! The Nazis are fighting Bolshevism, so their rough and tumble methods are A-OK!" He's the Minister of Propaganda for Creative Destruction Thought.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.07 - 4:26 pm | #

I'm not about to go to bat for Ledeen or anything that he's said, but I'm really baffled by why Mark has seized on this whole "Creative Destruction" business. As far as I can tell, this is what happened:

Step One: An entirely forgettable conservative columnist wrote an entirely forgettable unconservative column in which he explained that war and revolution were what made western civilization, and particularly American civilization, great, and employed the phrase "creative destruction" in the process.

Step Two: Mark labels those who support the Iraq war as being in favor of "creative destruction," as if everyone who supports the war (a) supports it for the reasons that Ledeen does, and (b) agrees with Ledeen's column.

It's very weird. I don't get it. I'd really like to see a Venn diagram showing the overlap between "Creative Destruction" and "Salvation by Leviathan by Any Means Necessary," but I'm afraid I would have a stroke in the cliche-processing area of my brain.
K the C | 07.30.07 - 5:02 pm | #

Mark labels those who support the Iraq war as being in favor of "creative destruction," as if everyone who supports the war (a) supports it for the reasons that Ledeen does, and (b) agrees with Ledeen's column.

Could you document for me where I have ever said this?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.07 - 5:15 pm | #

Here comes the shuffle!
John | 07.30.07 - 5:32 pm | #

he explained that war and revolution were what made western civilization, and particularly American civilization, great, and employed the phrase "creative destruction" in the process

And now I know. Thanks.
Dave G. | 07.30.07 - 5:37 pm | #

John:

Since you apparently aren't interested in what I think, but only in accusing me of something you prefer to believe I think, then I don't see any particular reason why you need to read what I say at all. Your mind is already made up. Why confuse you with my actual views when you are so certain about what they are?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.07 - 5:57 pm | #


Could you document for me where I have ever said this?

Hmmm. Perhaps because you quote Ledeen more often than someone who actually admires him, and link his words to each and every new incident of horror that comes out of Iraq? And now, even out of Nazi Germany/Austria?

That might give some people the impression that "Mark labels those who support the Iraq war as being in favor of 'creative destruction,' as if everyone who supports the war (a) supports it for the reasons that Ledeen does, and (b) agrees with Ledeen's column."

I don't support the war myself, but the reasoning and from-the-hip rhetoric that you display so often (and retract almost as often) doesn't seem to be helping the debate on the war at all. And it's really wearisome when you dig into the same old bag of tricks when discussing a beatification. Wasn't it, um, you who just a short time ago castigated people for lumping every war into either the category of WWII or Vietnam? Or was that an imposter?

As far as your actual views... I confess I don't really know them. I read your blog often enough, but one day you're on one side, the next day on the other. You want to denigrate those who support the war while still fostering an impression that you respect the opinion of those who disagree with you. You go off on a rant against traditionalists, then attempt to show your even mindedness by posting links to Latin Mass sites.

I think the main problem may just be that:

1. you don't think before you post
2. you are so thin skinned that you feel you have to somehow be perceived as fair to all Catholic views, hence the compulsive "hey--look, I'm a good guy" stuff

It seems to just lend to a schizophrenic sort of blogging that looks, at times, like one of those guys on the bus talking to himself.

Anyhow. That's my 2 cents. Maybe if you installed a program that forced a two-hour window between writing and posting, you wouldn't end up posting so many apologies for stupid reasoning.

I had a friend once offer to give me one of your books, and I jokingly asked if each chapter was a retraction of the previous one. He cringed, but said, "Yeah, he is like that sometimes, huh?"

Here's hoping you start pondering more and writing less.
John | 07.30.07 - 6:37 pm | #

Perhaps because you quote Ledeen more often than someone who actually admires him, and link his words to each and every new incident of horror that comes out of Iraq? And now, even out of Nazi Germany/Austria?

That might give some people the impression that "Mark labels those who support the Iraq war as being in favor of 'creative destruction,' as if everyone who supports the war (a) supports it for the reasons that Ledeen does, and (b) agrees with Ledeen's column."


Or it could be that Ledeen is (incredibly) a respected conservative writer whose work is highly regarded by people who ought to know better, and whose thought typifies the consequentialist thinking that dominates American discourse on subjects as diverse as abortion and torture. It could be that Jagestatter was confronted with exactly the same sort of consequentialism from the "Nazis oppose Bolshevism, so it's okay" types of his own time. In short, it could have to do with the fact that I am criticizing "ends justifies the means" chatter and am not at all saying that "everyone who supports the war (a) supports it for the reasons that Ledeen does, and (b) agrees with Ledeen's column".
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.07 - 6:56 pm | #

Perhaps because you quote Ledeen more often than someone who actually admires him, and link his words to each and every new incident of horror that comes out of Iraq?

John gets it exactly right here, Mark. Search your own blog for the phrase, and find it continuously in reports about Iraq and the war on terror.

Now, that would be fine if "creative destruction" was a phrase that actual conservatives or war supporters actually use. But if you google ("creative destruction" ledeen), all you get are anti-war links from left, right, and center. I've never encountered the phrase on any pro-war blog. More importantly, I've never heard a conservative other than Ledeen say anything positive about continual revolution. This is the exact thing that conservatism stands against! We're not in favor of revolution, from French to Russian to sexual.

And yet you employ the phrase "creative destruction" reflexively in your Bad News From Iraq posts, as if anyone other than Ledeen has actually adopted that garbage.

I'll repeat: "creative destruction" is crap, and virtually every conservative except Ledeen recognizes that.
K the C | 07.30.07 - 7:55 pm | #

Or it could be that Ledeen is (incredibly) a respected conservative writer whose work is highly regarded by people who ought to know better.

Please find for me a single conservative who has had anything positive to say about Ledeen's "creative destruction." Combox idiots don't count.
K the C | 07.30.07 - 7:59 pm | #

I wasn't aware the the editors and readers of National Review were combox idiots.

Here's the thing, you don't get published over and over if the editor thinks you are a waste of column inches. I sort of think its an indication of being a highly regarded conservative writer if the flagship publication of American Conservatism keeps publishing you and even affording a repeated forum for your crank ideas on creative destruction. And when that journal is famous for excommunicating *some* conservatives as "unpatriotic Americans" while making *sure* to keep publishing your thoughts on creative destruction, that's an even bigger indication this was not an oversight or a function of the Big Tent.

Am I missing something? I'm not aware of some sudden groundswell of revulsion on the Right for Ledeen's rhetoric. I'm just aware of the fact that a man who could advocate bayoneting the wounded and whose jabber about creative destruction is a matter of unrecanted public record is still afforded a regular--and apparently popular--pulpit at NR. Your sudden announcement of his unpopularity on the Right is the first I've heard of it.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.07 - 8:46 pm | #

John gets it exactly right here, Mark. Search your own blog for the phrase, and find it continuously in reports about Iraq and the war on terror.

Well, yes. That would be true, wouldn't it, since the phrase has been articulated by Ledeen primarily to drum up enthusiasm for our nation-building efforts in Iraq.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.07 - 8:48 pm | #

I wasn't aware the the editors and readers of National Review were combox idiots. Here's the thing, you don't get published over and over if the editor thinks you are a waste of column inches.

I wasn't aware that advocating a single unconservative idea was a mortal sin, thereby earning you eternal banishment from the pages of National Review. Apparently there can be no disagreement within the magazine, because if two people disagree, someone is wrong, and needs to be excommunicated. Ledeen may be a "highly regarded conservative," but his status doesn't prevent him from advocating goofy ideas.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the only evidence of conservative support for Creative Destruction that you can come up with is that Ledeen hasn't been banished from the pages of NR? You mean you can't find a single conservative who says "yeah, a view of history as perpetual revolution is what conservatism is all about! If conservatism is about anything, it's about continuously overthrowing the established order. Yeah!" You can't find another conservative columnist who shares this view? You can't find a single major conservative weblog that endorses his continual revolution thesis?

You think he's got a "popular pulpit" at NR. And your evidence is... what?

You've got nothing, Mark. All you've got is Ledeen, standing alone, spinning this unconservative, fundamentally leftist view of the development of western civilization. And he gets published in National Review. Why, that must mean that Ledeen articulates the reasons that conservatives support this war!

Ledeen speaks for himself on this one. Again, I challenge you to come up with any prominent conservative who endorses this Jeffersonian view of history. Go to any conservative and ask him if he agrees with the thesis that continual revolution and upheaval has been what brought about the advancement of the west.

If you want to use every bit of bad news that comes out of Iraq as an opportunity to illustrate why Ledeen is wrong, fine. But you're really wasting your time. We all know he's wrong. We all know that Creative Destruction is garbage. What's the point of bringing it up continuously?
K the C | 07.30.07 - 9:19 pm | #

Compare and contrast:

"Democracy. Whisky. Sexy."

vs.

"Creative Destruction"

They're both erroneous conceptions about the war. But you'll find wide support for the former, especially on blogs with archives stretching back a few years. Plenty of war supporters still stand behind the idea, even though Victory Through Majority Rule, Booze, and Porn has been largely discredited.

But "Creative Destruction"? It's just you and a whole bunch of crickets chirping, Mark.
K the C | 07.30.07 - 9:47 pm | #

Come on guys! We all know that for todays conservative, war is just foreign policy by other means. Or just call it creative destruction for political-economic interests. Those who oppose the trigger-happy vigilantyism of neo-cons are treated with contempt by them for being anti-war. I doubt F. Jaggerstatter, if he were around today, would have seen the Iraq war much differently than the one he was confronted with.
Dave K | 07.30.07 - 10:06 pm | #

I doubt F. Jaggerstatter, if he were around today, would have seen the Iraq war much differently than the one he was confronted with.

That might be true. But I would like to think he would see the government that is waging the conflict in Iraq differently than he saw the government with which he was confronted.
Dave G. | 07.31.07 - 1:28 am | #

Three points should probably be made here, among them being that Ledeen's use of Creative Destruction far predates the Iraq war. He uses it in Freedom Betrayed, for instance, which I believe was written during the 1990s. Secondly, I don't think that Ledeen has ever advocated "bayoneting the wounded" and would challenge Mark to produce a citation on that front. I know the article that he would likely link to and it doesn't say what he thinks it says.

The third thing that I would say to Mark concerning his fixation with what is published in NRO while simultaneously railing against the magazine is that it resembles nothing so much as the kid in high school whose still sulking over the fact that he isn't allowed to sit at the cool kids' table. Given NRO's frequent lapses into Rudymania of late at a time when I think consistent conservatives should be doing everything in their power to challenge the man, I'm not terribly inclined to defend the publication, but Mark's frequent whining on this one is just pathetic.

Saturday, July 28, 2007

Secular Messianists all, no doubt ...

Here are some fun quotes for Mark to read the next time he declares Bush a heretic and a secular messianist for asserting that political freedom is a gift from God:
"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." - James Madison

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson

"God grant, that not only the Love of Liberty, but a thorough Knowledge of the Rights of Man, may pervade all the Nations of the Earth, so that a Philosopher may set his foot anywhere on its Surface, and say, "This is my Country." - Benjamin Franklin

"Nevertheless, amid the greatest difficulties of my Administration, when I could not see any other resort, I would place my whole reliance on God, knowing that all would go well, and that He would decide for the right."
--From the October 24, 1863 Remarks to the Baltimore Presbyterian Synod

"Enough is known of Army operations within the last five days to claim our especial gratitude to God; while what remains undone demands our most sincere prayers to, and reliance upon, Him, without whom, all human effort is vain."
--From the May 10, 1864 Telegram Press Release

"Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter To Henry L. Pierce and Others" (April 6, 1859), p. 376.

Further examples abound, of course. The point that I have long endeavored to make is that while one might disagree with these sentiments, it's not as though this is a new trend in American political thought or rhetoric and we don't appear to have created the system of the Antichrist just yet.